Tarot History Forum

In the lists of the silk dealers (Franco Pratesi) we've variously appearances of the category GRA for grande ... these were relative cheap decks and the assumption, that they were only for show, looks not probable. Naturally we don't know, if these Florentine GRA had the relative common size with 17 cm in height for luxury decks. Alternative sizes are PIC for piccolo and small and MEZ (medium size).

http://trionfi.com/naibi-aquired
http://trionfi.com/naibi-silk-dealers

Hello mikeh - 1st unfortunately your link goes 404.

The info you provide on the
"Stuttgart Playing Cards (Timothy Husband, The World in Play, pp. 17-18)"

Is a very deep and most interesting study that I would wish for the PMB - considering them the "root" of TAROT like most researchers and laymen do - as well done immediately.

In fact it should have been done like this on them decades ago in a manner I'll provide an example for from the "dark" side - Dr Dee's Magical Mirror / Dr Dee's Magical Speculum:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... more-views

NOT because I "think" they (the PMB) are "magical" but because they indeed have THREE dimensions and so: DEPTH like your text about the "Stuttgart Playing Cards" shows to the max and in detail. Pictures would be great too but then again THEY are the "Stuttgart Playing Cards" and NOT the "The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D".

It's (like you see in this and "the other" thread) hard enough to communicate for me to you (and the other interested readers) a SYSTEM that is CONSISTENT (all the while in different appearances) through the AGES and cultures.

Right now the farthest step we took so far with pictures and links in different places is the Zoroastrianism which interested researchers (those who go after PATTERNS - because TAROT is a VISUAL thing on the 1st stage obviously) may know how to look it up and where when they need to.

I posted about that in the sibling on A that was yesterday closed by Alta with a comment you should really not mis in it's logical bravado:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... 020&page=3

(I just checked - she sadly made no progress)

You will understand (or not still?) that THIS IS much space in time to cover for a THREAD?
The "Stuttgart Playing Cards" MAY have a similar system to the Goldschmidt cards we had a visit from in the "other thread - but I would not vouch for that AND THEY are NOT the topic here.

Your closing sentence:
>> Husband thinks that all the surviving 15th century luxury cards were made for show and not play, but this is the only argument that I can find for that position, and it is only with regard to the one deck. But perhaps the points fit the others as well. <<

Well - I know about those quite unsubstantiated stances from "experts" in TAROT all over the world and from all the trades you can think of (or better not ;) ) and the "whole point" of this and "the other" thread is to proof otherwise

[Please allow me a side note to Huck here so that I don't have to use more storage up as necessary:
As you have got a knack on SERPENTs right now I thought of a topic about the OUROBOROS - in it's real CARD form that should take a toll of some weeks to post. So PLEASE hold your horses Huck now and in THIS THREAD and when your insight has matured (in a few weeks) you could visit us there - My Unicorn/the OUROBOROS and me? How does that sound? Great - I know - I'm so intrigued right now to do some productive work.

About your new Naibi links: see I said it > look at the bucket list I gave you >> now you get warmer >>> but do not be afraid to go further: you know the CULTURE the naibi came from and all the links that I gave so far here and there BUT they (being NAIBI and all): are surely NOT "The Visconti-Sforza Tarot in 3-D" - don't you agree? cu]

Adrian

P.S. I must add something about my view of the "quite unsubstantiated stances from "experts" like Mr. Husband here who "thinks that all the surviving 15th century luxury cards were made for show and not play".
My "opinion" is that they - The PMB & other Visconti-(Sforza) "cards" - were made for "USE" on a wall with the KILIM-Pattern painted on and around a 100 clipped of nails hammered into those crossings to help them move over the wall to reveal inherent patterns for and between themselves and after ONE never changing plan. Only 22 (2 took the teachers when they left) did the dancing from nail to nail and 56 stayed put to form a court for that game that was none BUT the different pages of several books.

Hi Huck - this is about your post of that picture that you brought:







And I did come back for 2 reasons:

1st it IS slightly on topic & 2nd your conclusions about the content show that your really do not KNOW nothing about this stuff - what is no surprise given your former repudiations of "Alchemy" and "Secrets" and "Code" and "Coding" and "DE-coding" and "Masonry" and all that other "non"-reasonable fields of interest that we came close to in "the other" thread.

You had for all these fields nothing but mockery (please read again your own postings about that in all the different places) and yet you dare to take this obviously alchemical "allegory" (the title has it as such) as a proof for YOUR POV?

What chutzpah! And chapeau nevertheless!

You got after all one conclusion out of it:

Sforza dragon with axe on a tree ... as in the story of Authari (Theodelinda's first husband)

Here now is how to read it:

The ISLAND you'll see - but inhabited - on The WORLD.
It has a name though and you find that name NOT in all of the CHRISTIAN world. The hill with it's rough surface takes the place of the walled city there and the TREE grows where you will find the HOLY of HOLIES in the city WHEN you would just care to OBSERVE with ZOOM what THERE CAN be FOUND!

The DOG you see here will be of interest only to you when you DARE to cross over.
It is unshackled and so very dangerous.

That what you took for the AXE (I reckon) is the LEASH that is already LINKED to the COLLAR that lies on the ground.
About this dog (and his siblings) you can learn more (but not all) when you visit "the other" thread and go looking for the UNICORN CARPETS in France on display. The DOGs are put to use there in all their deadly furor (but not all again!).
When they are unleashed they still wear their collar when they go HUNTING.
This shows they are attended and have a MASTER when you should come across them somewhere and HE may not be out of the reach of your voice for your sake.

THIS DOG instead is not wearing his COLLAR. That will only occur intentionally on such a deserted ISLAND with no MASTER around - what means (because A DOG can not UN-buckle his own collar - what is the whole point of a collar and leash) that his MASTER left and unleashed it INTENTIONALLY so that it can go on it's own HUNTs on every occasion itself deems fit - mostly when hungry of course - and when someone should dare to cross over - well - it's a done deal - for the DOG!

So to get to the tree that obviously holds treasures (that are so totally unknown and unheard and unseen of for YOU that you think that an AXE could be used to CUT the TREE down in which FRUITS the VISCONTI and SFORZA were so interested in for centuries!) you (OK not YOU as in you: Huck) would have to gain CONTROL over that DOG. It is a GUARDIAN here - that runs free when it doesn't pose for a portrait.
There there good doggie.

You obviously missed in your deep-cutting AXE thoughts that there is a tiny little hand coming out of a cloud of the Visconti lair that resembles the hand of the supposed Saracen (Scientist's quote - not mine!) a bit. The color of the shirtsleeve is equal to the skin tone of the little person and both their hands are when taken together a stop-motion move of reaching out for SOMETHING > the LEASH.

Another thing has escaped your weary attention: the little sole hand comes out of a cloud that has as a frame in the likeness of the later aces of swords and clubs on Tarot de Marseille cards - AND you should NOTICE that this cloud mirrors the Biscione that is right down below.

Food for thought maybe?
(That is a stance I read around here quite often but I still got no taste for it - just while we are talking about food here you know... )

When you put all this together (because they had to go with simple paintings and not Hollywood movies like we could today) it means:

The DRAGON is the PROVIDER of WISDOM in REALITY because of that HE WEARS the CROWN!
The Saracen is protected by HIM and gives with his OPEN hands HIS WISDOM to the VISCONTI who got accepted in fully (the sleeve color: to wear someone's color shows in the open that this one is OWNED) and now think that they are ready to use it to gain CONTROL...

The Helmet Dragon with it's protégé in it's fangs (because the Head - CAPUT - WISDOM you know... ) has come to LIFE now in comparison to the shield where it's painted on and the VISCONTI family is so in possession and CONTROL of the SECRET that grants access to...

...The TREE Of LIFE... Now - was that so hard?

The SFORZA are hoping to get accepted in fully - still they are depending on the VISCONTI to shelter and feed them with the FRUITs.

Some details you do obviously NOT pay attention to (because ALCHEMICAL you know... ) too have changed in the picture I gave you that you if I remember correctly already KNEW (like we SEE here):
Eagles and Serpents are equal in number and occurrence.

So many other things I could tell you but obviously to no further avail because I did that already here and there and everywhere.

(And of course you could use now your SEARCH function on what I said here... )

Adrian

P.S. In favor of The TREE I must add that it's form was floating throughout the millennia and before an expert who comes by accident across this post that he found on his SEARCH machine I would suggest that he should consider the date before he feels so offended that he turns his back...

I'm not so interested in your fantasies.

The dog and the context belongs to Francesco Sforza's impresa.

You find the same picture on coins and also at the church door of San Sigismondo (where Francesco Sforza married). The axe on a tree belongs to a story, in which the young Muzio Attendola threw his axe into a tree.

So PLEASE hold your horses Huck now and in THIS THREAD and when your insight has matured (in a few weeks) you could visit us there

Well, good bye till then. Maybe you should consider your communication strategies.

Well - you'll see where your accounts lead you I'm sure.

Hugs and kisses

Adrian

P.S. But before we part here and I consider the hell out of my communication strategies: could you have the courtesy to show me the AXE that you hold so dear in the JPG above? Could be I just overlooked it in my delusions and so I could reconsider again?

"The first of these episodes describes Muzio at the age of twelve; he was engaged in plowing his father’s lands when he was attracted by a military company passing by and decided he would join it if the hoe, he was firmly holding, would remain fixed to the tree trunk he had chosen to strike it at. And so it happened. Returning to documented historical events, from that day Muzio’s military career was a continuous success."

As much as I like to listen to such stories of old - I like the original and genuine ones better still and when you read thoroughly Huck you'll see that I asked precisely for The AXE in The TREE in The ABOVE JPG and not for some story from somewhere.

Just in case that your browser was broken (I remember that this happens sometimes... ) I brought you a link to Wikipedia where you should search for a JPG of 1321 × 1752 px NOT the one that you brought that leaves some room for imagination because it was just 452 x 599 px and so blurry that in this Germanic quite late hour a dog's leash with a T or toggle handle for leashing the dog when it has arrived at it's homestead to a fitting ring for convenience turned before your observant eyes into The AXE from The TALE you believe in.

So I do not assume that this is on you - or a fantasy like you might probably call it when you get the sense that something I said is not to your liking.

Just have a fresh look and try again to see The AXE in The TREE:







And when you should find it please share the find marked with an unmistakable mark so that every reader can see what you can see!

Adrian

OMG it is sooo big! Here is the link for download or watch on demand:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Sforza.JPG

And here I come to the rescue Huck because I decided to read the story you brought about your Italian friend.

When I read it I wondered where The AXE might be stuck and in what tree. When I read about the wooden event it got to me like a revelation: YOU don't know the word HOE and what it means (no - please - quiet children... shhh!)!

Here a link to the Oxford Dictionaries because (like they say it right there in their logo):
Language matters (no kidding!)

https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de/d ... glisch/hoe

And because of that tool it describes it was like a "judgment of God" for the 12 year old that it STUCK in the TREE so he could GO...
But it was a HOE and NO axe! Sorry. OK - as I know you you may probably come up with some other ...mmh... argument... anyway HERE are some pictures to feast your eyes on...

https://www.google.de/search?q=hoe&clie ... 24&bih=739

Don't look at the naked stuff - go for the tools!

Adrian

P.S. A remark I can not hold back and so decided to share with you here: Your conclusion about that whole story is obviously founded on nothing. You did not even get the POINT of the story about young Muzio because if it would have BEEN an AXE like you firmly believe(d?) the story would have never found it's way into some (and now your) accounts or archives. Who would have been surprised that an AXE stuck in a tree trunk when you strike it with such? And to decide a whole life's journey on such an obvious event (or not) - who would do that? Surely not young Muzio because HE took a RISK and PREVAILED in such a forlorn setting! It was like putting all your life savings on RED at the table. Because he prevailed and went to be a hero this event shows to his fans that he had it in him (It's a political propaganda story of course but that's not the problem) before. It was his destiny! The AXE would have made him a forgotten loser - not worthwhile for gossip. Not back then or now. NEVER. So: how could you go for that thought? This makes me worried for your other research that I believed in till now concerning historical events. I must think about that a bit and maybe come back but am not quite sure yet what to make of this all... you see I'm confused and talk like the strain of thoughts travels through my brain... sleep tight...

Another thing I feel obliged to add because it concerns the approach of artistic productions as a whole (especially around here where I see so many researchers wasting time and maybe money to detect for example the IDENTITIES of depicted personas (fictional characters) on Tarot cards.

The BISHOP of the Goldschmidt cards for instance.
When you remember "the other" thread I unveiled his name - his profession - his nationality...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesius

But nobody of the researchers cared. Why? Because HE wouldn't fit into the SYSTEM that is in use around here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serp ... uimica.jpg

Please read the file comment there.

There are different and commonly accepted categories in art and art-history. One of them is the wide field of ALLEGORY and TAROT TRUMPS in totality belong THERE. NO question (in art-history) about that.

An Allegory like your JPG above: De Sphaera - Allegory Sforza
(official title on Wikipedia where my link stems from)

is NOT supposed to reproduce a REAL event. In fact it is meant (and understood by art-historians) to be:

a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/allegory

Here is a link to pinterest that has a lot of ALLEGORYs (my SEARCH term there) and you will find some famous personas among them (unfortunately nowadays you'll have to register there to see them in all their glory and in full bloom - but it's free and done in a minute - otherwise I'm sure you can find this category on other sites too):

https://de.pinterest.com/search/pins/?r ... mplete%7C2

Or with other words:

When this work of art is CALLED: "De Sphaera - Allegory Sforza" and you are of the opinion that it depicts a REAL event (the story that you colported that was none) why wouldn't you search for the "Sphaera" (what can be at least 3 different things in the MATERIAL world: a "ball" - a "celestial globe" or the orbit of celestial bodies) IN the picture?

There would be much more to add obviously but this is only a tiny little overlooked thread in the WIDE world of tarot that no researcher would care about anyway (me: I'm far from that either!) when he/she wants to be friends with peers. Take it just as a suggestion from me to revise your scientific approach of the matter at hand as I do - you are the witness

with consider(ing my) communication strategies

When we do not follow that system of categorization of art we might sometimes end up searching for this in the REAL WORLD:







This is an ALCHEMICAL (symbolic) engraving called: The 5 obstinate Monsters

Everybody KNOWS them but nobody has ever spotted them in this shape - and this would obviously not get filed under "Documentation of an Real Event". This is only a BIT more obvious like the "De Sphaera - Allegory Sforza" that you brought because as it happens there are a TREE and a DOG in it (but a LOT of other things too who are not from this MATERIAL world on any account - and you should think about the artist who did it! Not because his NAME would tell you something BUT everything he PAINTED was methodical (otherwise he would not have been the contractor OR we wouldn't KNOW about him )

I hope that was interesting - for me it was

Adrian

To make the above said more clear with an example that could be translated to Tarot-Speak or the mind-set of research thereat perfectly well:







If you would examine this JPG as like it is done with Tarot (especially the topic here) "cards" or your "De Sphaera - Allegory Sforza" around here and you wouldn't have the convenience that I would tell you down below what it REALLY is you could search through all the archives to detect the names of the models and you could probably get lucky.

From the style and making you could conclude the artist with some experience in such matters and every artist back then had a short list of models he worked with. Like in porn today not every model would do everything and so the list would get shorter when you'd search for models that would pose naked and WITH a man.

When you now are so lucky as it sometimes happens nowadays that you find on ebay a part of the heritage of that model - some personal diaries maybe... how likely do you think it would be to get any further to the TRUE meaning of that above allegory? You would find their personal drama and joy and so on...

Maybe you get where I'm going with this - so that I do not have to go further into that private stuff.
A similar thing would happen when you would focus on the artist and his life.
That he did other works maybe that look strikingly same wouldn't get you the REAL intention of his or his employer's if there weren't any SPECIFIC accounts about The WORK.
Fortunately THIS was no part of any secret and so I can reveal to you:

Mars & Venus - Allegory of Peace by Louis-Jean-François Lagrenée (1781)

When you had dared while your investigation was still on to care for The SYMBOLS that are abundant you could have gotten a clue - but to be really sure about that would be... an hell of an expertise done by a real expert.
He could show you his "credentials" from some revered scholarly places that could sound strange and unfamiliar in your ears or maybe he has lost his luggage on his way to you - and you would still have to TRUST him that his explanations are correct and so his conclusions - otherwise you would have to go all the way the expert went to get in your presence for yourself what should take you some decades...

So - indeed like you mentioned when you refuted my thoughtful explanation in the whole - FANTASY (but not unshackled) and OBSERVATION (even of the SLIGHTEST details - the number of stones on the Island for example and more because NUMBERS are indicators and so hold HIDDEN meanings in the ALLEGORICAL part of The WORLD) IS needed to DE-code an ALLEGORY.

Adrian

P.S. Please note that this post is only meant to explain the futility of searching for the resemblances between real-life-occurrences (may they be identities or locations or events or any other "worldly" stuff). If you FIND such resemblances you are NOT lucky because they mislead away from the grail (> symbol - of course (!?)). I already know sure enough that researchers care about symbols and such - but a whole bunch of threads would be necessary to explain why what where doesn't fit in to fill the gap because every one BELIEVES in his own Tarot-Confession and there are many around with no probable claim of the secret for the simple reason that if someone would have access don't you think he'd write a book about it or give lessons or something ?