SteveM wrote:
...not only with Latin suits but with French suits too.
Interesting. I never knew this applied to the French suits. Is it the Hearts & Diamonds that are Ace high?
SteveM wrote:
...not only with Latin suits but with French suits too.
In games where the rule is applied, the red pips of the french suits as short suits of latin, black suits as long.R.A. Hendley wrote:SteveM wrote:
...not only with Latin suits but with French suits too.
Interesting. I never knew this applied to the French suits. Is it the Hearts & Diamonds that are Ace high?
Huck wrote: The old expression for ONE card deck is "paro" ... pairs (not only in Italy). For the "established playing card culture" of the later time this meaning wasn't interesting. A playing card deck had 4 suits ... though in two colors (black and red, rouge and noir, and PAIR and IMPAIR ... in roulette ... .-) )
I just remembered this discussion this morning and remembered that this is not the only evidence since 1637, even though the probably incomplete 1659 rule does not mention it. The Tarot de Rouen by Adam de Hautot (sometime around 1730) reads on the two of cups the same ruleRoss G. R. Caldwell wrote:Deep apologies - the earliest French rules of 1637 do observe the reverse ordering of Coins and Cups.
This is the only evidence of it though, and by the 1659 rules all the suits had the same order of rank, Ace low, Ten high.
Moreover at the end of the XVIIIth century, in the "Règle du jeu de Tarocs comme on le joue vulgairement à Annecy", which - although from Annecy under heavy Swiss and Italian influence - reads in frenchpour conoistre que la plus basse de deniers et de coupe enporte les plus haute quand pour le fait du jeu
to know that the lowest of Deniers and of Cups wins over the highest regarding the game
It is worth noting that the Annecy rule also follows piedmontese rule where the 20 trumps the 21 so it is proably a translation from the italian rule. But at a close time in an opposite corner of France - Rouen - the cups and deniers were sorted in the inverted order too, so I think the cups and deniers inverted order might have lasted longer than what the 1659 rule may lead us to think - at least in certain region of France.tout ce qu'il y a c'est que dans les coupes et les deniers l'as prend le 2, le 2 prend le trois, le trois prend le quatre, ainsi de suite en montant jusqu'au 10, au lieu que dans les épées et bâtons c'est l'inverse
all there is is that in cups and deniers the As takes the 2, the 2 takes the three, the three takes the four and so on up to the 10, and the opposite in the épées and bâtons
As a matter of interest, this order is still retained in some tarot games.Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Deep apologies - the earliest French rules of 1637 do observe the reverse ordering of Coins and Cups.
This is the only evidence of it though, and by the 1659 rules all the suits had the same order of rank, Ace low, Ten high.
Yes, of course. According to Dummett and McLeod (History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack, p. 4), who call it the "original ranking", only France and Sicily observe the "simplified" rule of Ace low, Ten high in every suit.dr bartolo wrote:As a matter of interest, this order is still retained in some tarot games.Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Deep apologies - the earliest French rules of 1637 do observe the reverse ordering of Coins and Cups.
This is the only evidence of it though, and by the 1659 rules all the suits had the same order of rank, Ace low, Ten high.
Tarock is much older than 1825. Goethe in Werther's Leyden (1774) had his major figure playing Tarock. Printer Breithaupt (Leipzig), who later wrote about playing cards (1784), had bought a playing card fabric in 1771 ... Goethe as young man had close contact to his family, the Breithaupt sons were his friends.dr bartolo wrote:This reversed ranking, as a matter of interest, is why the german "tarock" pack retained only the ace, 2,3,4 in the red suits, and 7,8,9,10 in the black suits. so, you'd end up with a deck of 54 cards, the trumps and courts unchanged.
I think the reason why this was so was the players got bored with 40 pip cards, and so, reduced the number to 16.....
But, the earliest tarock deck I know of , by Franz Xavier Milchram, the "grazer tarock" (1825) has the ranking of 7,8,9 ,10 in
all suits, plus a ace of hearts and a ace of diamonds! (so as to bringthe number of cards to 56 and make it more divisible amongst 4 players, perhaps?)