Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#151
mikeh wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 23:56
...it seems to me that the reason that Venus is elevated is that she is the strongest member of the foursome in Doves.

How exactly is Venus "stronger"? Is this based on anything other than a personal hunch?

If Ross is right about the primacy of Livy, then Venus should be #6 (Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9: Six couches were publicly exhibited; one for Jupiter and Juno, another for Neptune and Minerva, a third for Mars and Venus, a fourth for Apollo and Diana, a fifth for Vulcan and Vesta, and the sixth for Mercury and Ceres).

And should Marziano date after 1417 when Manilius was discovered (and accordingly influenced by that discovery), it becomes even more jumbled, with Jupiter mentioned fourth in the Astronomica. But that's not the case. Something else was at work here.

But let me ask: why is it irrelevant to Marziano's project that Venus was also the progenitor of the Visconti dynasty? Not to mention his project utilized the same artist who painted that genealogy of divine descent....and terminates in none other than the person of Filippo Maria Visconti:
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#152
mikeh wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 23:56
Ross wrote
I think the new suits are interpretations of the standard suits, so that Batons are Virtus (the scepter of rule), Coins are Riches, Cups are Pleasure, so Swords are Virginities, and he places Pallas/Athena first.
Like Phaeded I question these assignments, if only for Virtus and Virginities.

In 1989 Pratesi wrote://trionfi.com/earliest-tarot-pack):
[A comment may at once be deserved to the four "suits". At first sight, they seem to be quite original; however, if the usual interpretations of the four suits in a standard pack are considered, the originality of these orders is strongly reduced: it is not difficult to suspect denari under riches, spade under virtues, coppe under pleasures, even if the association of bastoni with virginity or even with temperance, the alternative name of the order, is to me something still unheard of.]
I'm not dogmatic about the equivalences, I have no special knowledge here.

My opinion is influenced by Fernando de la Torre, who gave Swords to Nuns:

Espadas - Nuns - red letters
Bastones - Widows - black letters
Coppas - Wives - blue letters
Oros - Maidens - green letters

I interpret Fernando's choice to reflect the idea of nuns as militantly virgin, celibate (in contrast to the natural and literal virginity of young women, maidens). Also reflected in the choice of color for the lettering on the cards, red for passion. Thus passionately and militantly virgin, like Pallas, Diana, Vesta, and Daphne.
Why should "bastoni" be "scepters" rather than just "sticks"? If sticks, they would count as a weaker weapon than swords, corresponding to the difference between the men of Eagles, the strongest bird, and the women of Turtledoves. Also, they originated from polo sticks and in their Spanish/Portuguese versions are clubs. Clubs as in the Marseille style courts, while their batons look more like polo sticks. In the Cary-Yale the bastoni have barbs on the end, so weapons there.
I'm thinking of the Italian suit, depicted as a scepter, rather than the Spanish rude clubs. The scepter represents rule, and the primary symbolism of the "order of Virtues" is rule, law-giving, art, negotiation, and virtus itself like that possessed by Hercules (who did indeed carry a club).
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#153
Phaeded wrote:
24 Mar 2020, 23:39
Hey Ross,
I'm quite willing (if not compelled) to jettison the Antonio/Giacomo arguments (inclusive of Tortona's [in]signficance), but not throwing out the ethnogenic bath water, as it were. The mistaken inferences I made (annual oaths and a transfer of heirs c. 1419) resulted from my misinterpretation of this citation of yours: "What matters to us is that in almost all the acts from 1412 to 1416 and in several subsequent up to the year 1419, Antonio Visconti is indicated as the heir presumptive of the duchy."
Romano only meant that in many of the Oaths of Fealty after 15 July 1412, a clause is added that swears fealty to Antonio as well. As I said, I haven't made a study of it, but today I looked at ducal register 10, a formal copy of scores of such acts for 1412-13, to see what he meant. The earliest I found is 26 July 1412, where it occurs in the following section:

Registri ducali 10, folio 25, 26 July 1412

Fidelitas Antonii Marchexii de Larocheta. Castelani castri Terdone.
Giuramento di fedeltà di Antonio Marchesi della Rocchetta castellano di Tortona
Oath of Fealty of Antonio Marchesi della Rocchetta castellan of the castle of Tortona

Quod Antoninus castelanus superscripti castri, fideliter, diligenter, vigilanter, custodiet tenebit, et servabit superscriptum castrum Terdone, ad honorem, et statum prefati illustris principis et domini domini Filipimarie, et descendentium successorum suorum in ducatu, et hiis deficientibus, nomine et vice magnifici domini Antonii Vicecomitis fratris prelibati domini ducis, et successive nomine et vice heredum instituendorum per prelibatum dominum ducem in eius testamento et ultima voluntate...

"That Antonio, the castellan of the abovewritten castle, will faithfully, diligently, and vigilantly guard, keep, and watch over the abovewritten castle of Tortona, to the honor and state of the aforesaid illustrious prince and lord the lord Filippo Maria, and his descendants and successors in the duchy, or, failing these, in the name and place of the magnificent lord Antonio Visconti brother of the aforesaid lord duke, or following in the name and place of the heirs established by the aforesaid lord duke in his last will and testament..."

Here is the original, in case you want to take a look (click link below for larger) -

http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... sconti.jpg

A quick glance afterwards shows the same. You get the feeling that Filippo Maria was just making sure that, no matter what, the duchy would remain in Visconti hands. But these were very early days, only a month in.

I get the overall sense in these days that Filippo Maria had the single obsession to impose the rule of law, his father's law, back onto the duchy. Everything else came from that. He must reestablish the duchy of Milan under the Visconti - not necessarily all of its possessions, but he carried on with that as well - as soon as possible. One thing that every modern history points out is one of his first acts, on 17 June 1412, was to order the Twelve of Provvisione, the city administrators, to choose the General Council, or Council of 900, the city council. This is the traditional number, 150 notable citizens from each of the six gates or administrative neighborhoods of the city, since the 13th century. The reason they point it out is that Filippo Maria was overturning a short reform that his brother had made, reducing the number of the General Council to only 72, 12 from each gate. So the new duke was saying, from his first days, that he was going back to the better days of his father's and grandfather's time, that he respected the traditional ways of the city, and was not a revolutionary.
You also note: "Maybe, and apparently he could have even named Bianca Maria his heir...." I've always wanted to jump on that idea, but somewhere Ianziti refers to an Italian scholar who apparently proved she was merely legitimized but never named heir. Nevertheless, there was no other issue, which in turn placed an undue sense of importance of whom Bianca might be married off to (certainly it was not beneath a d'Este prince, for instance, and Sforza doggedly pursued that match - however legally unfounded in terms of inheritance - as the stepping stone to the Duchy). But Bianca is of course a side issue, coming after Marziano.
I'll have to investigate the sources for this, Fossati gives a thorough summary of them. But when I said "could have, " I meant only that he had the option, not that he might have but we don't know. I don't think anybody thinks that, except for the forged "Donation of Filippo Maria" document justifying Sforza on the basis of his marriage to Bianca Maria. But that was written later, obviously.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#154
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
25 Mar 2020, 16:40
I'll have to investigate the sources for this, Fossati gives a thorough summary of them. But when I said "could have, " I meant that he had the option, not that he might have but we don't know. I don't think anybody thinks that, except for the forged "Donation of Filippo Maria" document justifying Sforza on the basis of his marriage to Bianca Maria. But that was written later, obviously.
I'll save you the trouble - I can't find my own copy at the moment (the expensive damn thing is somewhere in my house), but its on Google books,
Francesco Filelfo, Man of Letters, 2019: 99. https://books.google.com/books?id=yIN1D ... ca&f=false

If you are blocked for some reason, the citation Ianziti gives is: Cognasso, 1955: 389. (once I find my copy I can cite the whole reference)

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#155
Phaeded wrote:
25 Mar 2020, 17:06
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
25 Mar 2020, 16:40
I'll have to investigate the sources for this, Fossati gives a thorough summary of them. But when I said "could have, " I meant that he had the option, not that he might have but we don't know. I don't think anybody thinks that, except for the forged "Donation of Filippo Maria" document justifying Sforza on the basis of his marriage to Bianca Maria. But that was written later, obviously.
I'll save you the trouble - I can't find my own copy at the moment (the expensive damn thing is somewhere in my house), but its on Google books,
Francesco Filelfo, Man of Letters, 2019: 99. https://books.google.com/books?id=yIN1D ... ca&f=false

If you are blocked for some reason, the citation Ianziti gives is: Cognasso, 1955: 389. (once I find my copy I can cite the whole reference)
Thanks. I'm going to buy Cognasso, one of these days.

Ianziti also discusses it in 86 to chapter 31 (p. 215) of The Deeds of Francesco Sforza:
"For had not Filippo Maria himself made his daughter Bianca Maria the legitimate heir to the duchy?(86)"

Note 86 (page 307), beginning: "No, he had not. ..."
He also cites Cognasso on the same page, as well as chapter 71 of the Life of Filippo Maria.

For the document of the "Donatio inter vivos" in question, Jean Du Mont, Corps universel diplomatique, page 155, number CIX:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=CvlCAA ... &q&f=false

Discussion Fossati to Decembrio LXXI, page 434 lines 56-89
https://books.google.fr/books?id=zHUtAQ ... 22&f=false
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#156
Ross wrote,
I'm thinking of the Italian suit, depicted as a scepter, rather than the Spanish rude clubs. The scepter represents rule, and the primary symbolism of the "order of Virtues" is rule, law-giving, art, negotiation, and virtus itself like that possessed by Hercules (who did indeed carry a club).
But how early did the Italian suits have scepters? Do you have any information? That's why I cited the Spanish and Portuguese: one or the other is quite early. As I said, the CY bastoni have barbs on the end, so a weapon. Do you have anything earlier? I discount Hercules because he is last. Likewise Daphne is not militant in the way the others are, she's too young; she's just protective of herself. What is apparent in Marziano is male vs. female for the two suits, so stronger vs. weaker, I'd think.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#157
Instead of continuing the casting about for the sources that may have influenced Marziano, should we perhaps let Filippo’s own interests weigh in here as the decisive influence in Marziano's arrangement of gods and goddesses (and a naiad)? After all, Marziano had a market of one person. Thankfully Decembrio provides the basics of what we need to know here:

Filippo’s core curriculum in literature consisted of the sonnets of Petrarch, written in Italian verse. The young man was so affected by his reading of these poems that when he became duke he insisted that someone in his entourage be designated to comment on and elucidate them [Ianziti notes Decembrio did this himself as well as provided a life of Petrarch, but I would also note Filelfo also provided extensive commentary of the canzoniere, at the duke’s request] . And it was he himself who established the order in which he wanted the sonnets to be read. He also listed with the greatest attention to Marziano da Tortona, whose lectures focused on the vernacular works of Dante. He listened to readings from Livy as well, but in no particular order, preferring rather to select the highlights…. (vita 62, Ianziti 125).

Knowing his prince well, for a project that focused on the classical heroum, surely Marziano wouldn’t have left out the mytho-poetic essence of Petrarch in the conceiving of his deck, nor his own personal connection with Filippo through his readings of Dante, especially the rich vein of classical material in the latter’s most famous vernacular work, the Comedia.

I’d like to frame the ensuing discussion by noting that the inclusion of the naiad Daphne into the deck, the least divine of all 16 “heroes”, is clearly a nod to Petrarch, who would mediated all classical sources in regard to her (such as Ovid) for Filippo. Daphne was of course the poetical stand-in for Laura, Petrarch’s proclaimed love interest who died young and was praised to the stars as much as Dante’s deceased Beatrice. Regarding her pivotal role in his trionfi:
But the archetypal image is the myth of Apollo and Daphne, for which we have essentially discovered in these particular verses of the last ‘Triumph’ is the ultimate power of the poet-Apollo who, having faced the inevitable loss of his beloved, decides to perpetuate her memory through his divine powers by proclaiming the eternal verdure of laurel-Laura, and sanctifying its coronation of human achievements. (Aldo S. Bernardo, Petrarch, Laura, and the Triumphs. 1974: 143, but Daphne figures throughout - Bernardo has 25 references to her in his index )

But Decembrio points us to Filippo's love of the sonnets, not the trionfi (but as just noted above, the trionfi hardly conflict with the Daphne thesis). To wit, in the longest of Petrarch’s canzoniere, 23, the poet himself undergoes Daphne’s transformation: What a state I was in when I first realized / the transfiguration of my person /and saw my hair formed of those leaves / that I had hoped might yet crown me.

The illuminations of Petrarchan manuscripts show the author with Laura almost always in connection with the laurel tree from the Daphne myth. Moreover, significantly in terms of Daphne and Cupid forming the pair that terminates Marziano’s list of gods, is the presence of the Goddess of Love’s son, or at least his arrow, in many of these illuminations. This became the primary way in which to portray Petrarch (and no doubt why all "Three Crowns" are always shown with laurel crowns, due to Petrarch's obsession with Laura/laurel-Daphne):

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Despite the apparent incongruity of the virginity of Daphne, the key takeaway from Petrarch is she has a human cognate, a flesh and blood woman, Laura, whom he was smitten with before she died (and then said love was sublimated into unending poetry). Any argument that Daphne is not a representative of Filippo’s own potential love interests, due to her chastity, would need to discount why Petrarch would not matter here, which would fly in the face of Decembrio’s explicit statement that Filippo was most affected by Petrarch, which in a word, is the human Laura. Moreover, given the presence of Cupid and/or his arrows in the several representations of Petrarch with Laura, one can interpret the presence of Daphne in Marziano's deck as related to Filippo’s own impulses towards a consort or would-be consort (either the problem that he was not going to have children with Beatrice, pre-1418, or when he was between marriages, post-1418). To quote Marziano on Cupid’s mother again.
Some among the ancients said that Venus was pleasure … Although it was not of this sort of pleasure that such an honorable man discussed, but of that preferable pleasure which seemed to follow virtuous acts. (Caldwell translation, 2019: 40-41).


What is this virtuous act is not making an "honest woman" out of the beloved, i,e., marriage?

In other words, Marziano takes a “Petrarchan” tact here in recognizing Venus, but tempers enthusiasm for her through the prism of virginity/virtue (which to my mind connotes a chaste bride, only deflowered after the virtuous act of marriage; Petrarch's own carnal urges are confused from from the point of view of a quasi-cleric's unrequited longing).

From that reference to Venus, we can segue back to the ethnogenic project: Filippo’s descent from Aeneas and Anglus, via Anchises-Venus. As noted by Decembrio, Marziano’s special literary connection to Filippo was Dante, and Dante’s most famous endeavor is specifically modeled on that original ethnogenic project: Virigil’s recounting of the divine descent of Octavius/Augustus from Venus, especially in Book VI of the Aeneid. In that book Aeneas descends into Hades, with the Sibyl in tow, and encounters his dead father Anchises (grandfather of Filippo’s ancestor Anglus) and through him is shown a vision of his future descendants culminating in Augustus. Similarly, Dante descends into the Inferno with Virgil himself in place of the Sibyl, but instead takes a backwards glance at the post-mortem fate of history’s figures (especially Florentines, of course).

We meet the conflicted Petrarchan theme of terrestrial and heavenly love most clearly in Dante’s Comedia at the ultimate liminal stage of entering Eden at the very end of the Purgatory, where Dante is first handed over to Statius as his next guide (and then ultimately Beatrice who appears on the chariot with the seven virtues). The references to the Aeneid are overt here. When Dante, still with Virigil, first meets Statius, the latter Roman poet readily admits his debt to Dante’s current guide: 'The sparks that kindled the [poetic] fire in me ….I mean the Aeneid (Purg. XXI 94-97). By the time of the final climatic parting with Virgil, Dante translates/quotes from Virgil’s own text, Aeneid 6.883: Manibus, oh, date lilia plenis (Purg. 30.21), and again from Aeneid 4.23, adgnosco veteris vestigia flammae, the last translated by Dante as conosco i segni dell’antica fiamma” (line 48).

Although Dante is making no ethnogenic claims for himself, of course, the overt references to the Aeneid in the Comedia could easily be pressed into such service by the likes of Marziano. As pagan as the ethnogenic enterprise was, it is ultimately seen through the lens of interpretatio christiana, and it is at this point in the Comedia where Virgil is jettisoned for a purely Christian worldview.

Let’s also recall here that Filippo was portrayed below Adam and Eve, still in Eden, in the leaf of the Visconti Hours featuring his own portrait, therefore this entry into Eden at the end of the Purgatory had to have been of keen interest to Filippo. From Columbia University’s online Digital Dante commentary, this summary of that important section of the Comedia:
The last canti of Purgatorio, canti 28-33, take place in the garden of Eden, aka the earthly paradise. …An unusual feature of Purgatorio 28 to 33 is that these six canti form a dense narrative block: “six cantos of carefully layered historical masques and personal dramas encompassing the supreme drama of the exchange of one beloved guide for another” [Virgil for Statius], Purgatorio 28 is also a prelude to the micro-historical material of the earthly paradise: the intensely personal dramas of the arrival of Beatrice in Purgatorio 30 and the pilgrim’s personal confession in Purgatorio 31….The “divina foresta spessa e viva” of Purgatorio 28.2 (in Mandelbaum’s beautiful rendition “that forest—dense, alive with green, divine”) is, obviously, the in bono counterpart to the “dark wood” (“selva oscura”) of of Inferno 1.2.....The pilgrim addresses Matelda as the lyric poet addresses his lady, saying “Deh, bella donna” (43); his love for her is figured in the three similes of profane classical love that are rehearsed in the scene following their encounter: she reminds him of Proserpina in the moment when she is ravished by Pluto and loses “spring,” i. e. the beautiful world in which she lived before her abduction (49-51; the word primavera, with its Cavalcantian echoes, is here used for the first time in the poem); the splendor of her eyes (of which she gives him a “gift,” as the shepherdess gives a gift of her heart) is like that of Venus’ eyes, in the moment that she falls in love with Adonis (64-66)….The first part of Purgatorio 28 is saturated with the language of love poetry, both vernacular Italian and Ovidian. Matelda is many things, including the epitome of a love poet’s object of desire. It is as though Cavalcanti’s pastorella (shepherdess) has come to life. Dante desires her, and his desire can no longer err. Matelda is most of all an unfallen Eve, the unfallen version of one of the original inhabitants of this place.…. where Matelda explains that when the classical poets of antiquity wrote of the Golden Age, they were perhaps dreaming of Eden.
https://digitaldante.columbia.edu/dante ... atorio-28/

What is not touched on above is the only appearance of Aeolos in the Comedia in this very section of Purgatory, which Marziano, in turn, has placed the wind god right before the appearance of the evergreen laurel-Daphne. Why? In regard to the primacy for the ethnocgenic project, Aeolos of course blows Aeneid off course (and eventually to Italy), courtesy Juno’s special relationship to the wind god. Marziano notes that Aeolos [Eolo] is controlled by by the “spouse [coniuge] of ethereal Jupiter”, thus even here providing the context of marriage (he could have just said Juno). But more to the point, while Aeolos doles out wintry blasts (hurting the fruits of Ceres and Bacchus) he also sends spring breezes – and what follows on that beneficial wind is an expository in accord with Dante’s description of Eden:
But when [Aeolous] summons the mild delightful Zephyr [perhaps most famous due to that wind’s connection and presence in Botticelli’s Primavera] the hillsides turn green instead of white, the woods are clothed with young leaves, all the fields laugh with grass, and new sweet streams flow from the sources; the glad world is now adorned with foliage and a variety of flowers, and the whole sky resounds, pleasant with the song of of flying creatures, and each living thing by nature inclines to love and coupling. (Caldwell, 81)
Marziano also comments that Aeolos is of the Aeolian islands off Sicily, the scene of the springtime capture of Persephone by Hades, although Dante merely likens Matelda to Persephone in the happiest of springtime terms (the reverse of descending into Hades is happening here – Dante is taking leave of Virgil for the Paradiso).

Compare the above Aeolos passage above from Marziano with the appearance of Aeolos in Dante's Purgatory, where these very same springtime subjects are encountered in the Eden atop Purgatory: a mild breeze – specifically linked with Aeolos (Ëolo) – birds, leaves, grass streams, flowers and love, by turns chaste and carnal.
7 A steady gentle breeze
8 no stronger than the softest wind,
9 caressed and fanned my brow.
10 It made the trembling boughs
11 bend eagerly toward the shade
12 the holy mountain casts at dawn,
13 yet they were not so much bent down
14 that small birds in the highest branches
15 were not still practicing their every craft,
16 meeting the morning breeze
17 with songs of joy among the leaves,
18 which rustled such accompaniment to their rhymes
19 as builds from branch to branch
20 throughout the pine wood at the shore of Classe [Ravenna, where Dante spent part of his exile]
21 when Aeolus unleashes his Sirocco.
22 Already my slow steps had carried me
23 so deep into the ancient forest
24 I could not see where I had entered,
25 when I was stopped from going farther by a stream.
26 Its lapping waves were bending to the left
27 the grasses that sprang up along the bank.
28 All the streams that run the purest here on earth
29 would seem defiled beside that stream,
30 which reveals all that it contains,
31 even though it flows in darkness,
32 dark beneath perpetual shade
33 that never lets the sun or moon shine through.
34 Though my feet stopped, my eyes passed on
35 beyond the rivulet to contemplate
36 the great variety of blooming boughs,
37 and there appeared to me, as suddenly appears
38 a thing so marvelous
39 it drives away all other thoughts,
40 a lady, who went her way alone, singing [Matelda]
41 and picking flowers from among the blossoms
42 that were painted all along her way.
43 'Pray, fair lady, warming yourself in rays of love--
44 if I am to believe the features
45 that as a rule bear witness to the heart,'
46 I said to her, 'may it please you
47 to come closer to this stream,
48 near enough that I may hear what you are singing.
49 'You make me remember where and what
50 Proserpina was, there when her mother
51 lost her and she lost the spring.'
52 As a lady turns in the dance
53 keeping her feet together on the ground,
54 and hardly puts one foot before the other,
55 on the red and yellow flowers
56 she turned in my direction,
57 lowering her modest eyes, as does a virgin,
58 and, attending to my plea, came closer
59 so that the sound of her sweet song
60 reached me together with its meaning.
61 As soon as she was where the grass is merely
62 moistened by the waters of the lovely stream,
63 she granted me the gift of raising up her eyes.
64 I do not think such radiant light blazed out
65 beneath the lids of Venus when her son by chance,
66 against his custom, pierced her with his arrow.
(Dante, Purg.XXVIII – translation from Hollander's Princeton’s Dante Project:
http://etcweb.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/dan ... 200&LANG=2 ).

Matelda recalls Dante's first passion for Beatrice (or Petrarch for Laura), placed in an Eden made green by Aeolus's springtime breeze, and also recalls the illuminations of Petrarch where Venus's son accompanies the beloved (Laura). Marziano has simply replaced Matelda for the more Petrarchan and resonant (for Filippo), Daphne. All in a context emotionally shot through with Dante's parting from the author of the Aeneid, Virgil, the penultimate source for the ethnogenic project of descent from Aeneas’s relations.

This material ties into my premise that Marziano specifically had Filippo’s marriage prospects in mind, preferably of a woman he could marry and bear successors from (alas, after executing his wife in 1418, Filippo pursued a woman married to one of his courtiers, Agnese del Maino, hence that issue being a bastard, Bianca). Since Petrarch was Filippo’s main literary love, naturally the chaste maiden chosen to be the symbol of Filippo's quarry is Daphne, seemingly paired with Cupido, who follows and completes the cycle of gods chosen for the card game. Aeolos appears as the blessings of springtime in Dante’s Eden - a sort of walled garden of love - and suitably comes immediately before Daphne (the laurel-tree, who would just as home in the green Eden as Matelda), a cognate for Virgl’s “golden bough” in the Aeneid but also the symbol of a suitable chaste maiden for Filippo. Why else is Daphne present?

If all of this seems too nuanced – too "literary" – Decembrio tells us this is precisely what Filippo was about, at least in regard to Petrarch and Dante.

Phaeded

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#158
I missed Phaeded's post at the top of this page. I haven't had time to read the intervening posts. Phaeded said
How exactly is Venus "stronger"? Is this based on anything other than a personal hunch?

If Ross is right about the primacy of Livy, then Venus should be #6 (Ab Urbe Condita 22,10,9: Six couches were publicly exhibited; one for Jupiter and Juno, another for Neptune and Minerva, a third for Mars and Venus, a fourth for Apollo and Diana, a fifth for Vulcan and Vesta, and the sixth for Mercury and Ceres).

And should Marziano date after 1417 when Manilius was discovered (and accordingly influenced by that discovery), it becomes even more jumbled, with Jupiter mentioned fourth in the Astronomica. But that's not the case. Something else was at work here.
Livy has to be put into the framework of the four orders of gods. Jupiter leads order 1, Juno order 2. Neptune is in order 2. Then comes Minerva, the leader of order 3. Then Mars, but he's in order 2, too. Then Venus is the leader of group 4. Not counting gods in the same group, Venus is 4th, right where she should be.

But I wasn't thinking of Livy. I was thinking of the category "pleasures", seen as a vice. Among the main gods, Venus is the strongest for vicious pleasure. Ceres is mostly famed for providing sustenance as opposed to surfeit. Marziano devotes most of his section on Venus on her bad qualities, but only one small mention of Ceres' harmfulness. Dionysus is almost not an Olympian at all, since his mother had a mortal father. And Cupid, although said to overpower even Jupiter, is not an Olympian at all, but ranks among the demigods.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#159
Further on the dating, perhaps weighing for an earlier -

Vito Capialbi's copy of DSH might also weigh towards an earlier dating.

In 1835 he described the manuscript hand as “"scritte pulitissimamente in latino sopra pergamena nel secolo XIV."  "very cleanly written in Latin on parchment in the 14th century."


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... 45p148.jpg

Francesco Carabellese in 1897 was also an independent and primary witness to Capialbi's manuscript of DSH: Ringrazio il nobile ed egregio uomo Don Vincezo Capialbi, il quale mi ha permesso di esaminare questi mss. che possiede. (“I would like to thank the noble and eminent man Don Vincezo Capialbi, who allowed me to examine these mss. that he owns.”).He also dates it to the XIV century.  (Membranaceo, secolo XIV (Parchment 14th century))
Carabellese, Francesco, « Biblioteca Capialbi » in Giuseppe Mazzatinti, ed., Inventari dei manoscritti delle biblioteche d'Italia, vol. 7 (1897), pp. 195-204. It is number 36, click the link below for a larger image (if you have trouble I'll make a focus on that passage)


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... 897n36.jpg

These two independent witnesses both date the hand to the 14th century, which should be impossible. The only explanation is that the hand was in a 14th century style, perhaps someone trained then, like Marziano himself, or another old copyist.

This is what made me think Capialbi's copy may be the autograph. But whatever the case, if it is an old hand, it argues for an early date of copying, closer to the 14th century.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

#160
Phaeded wrote:
25 Mar 2020, 23:18
Why else is Daphne present?

If all of this seems too nuanced – too "literary" – Decembrio tells us this is precisely what Filippo was about, at least in regard to Petrarch and Dante.
Not at all, I was just waiting for something to click. I like your fine weaving of the threads of Aeolus from Dante. So I also looked at where Petrarch might have mentioned Aeolus. He does!

Petrarch evokes Daphne-Laura and Aeolus in a single poem, Sonetto 41
(incipit “Quando dal proprio sito si rimove”)
http://petrarch.petersadlon.com/canzoniere.html?poem=41

When that tree that Apollo once loved
in its human form moves from its proper place
,
Vulcan sighs and sweats at his work,
to refresh Jupiter's sharp lightning-bolts:

who sends now thunder, now snow, or rain,
without regard to July or January:
the earth weeps, and the sun stays far away,
because he sees his dear friend vanish.

Then those fierce planets Saturn and Mars
blaze out again, and armed Orion
shatters the poor sailor's tiller and shrouds:

and stormy Aeolus makes Neptune,
and Juno, and us, feel the departure
of that lovely face the angels wait for.


In Filelfo's order, it is Sonetto XXXV.
https://www.digitalcollections.manchest ... U-18302/59

“Et saturno et marte pianetti infortunati divengano piu arditi al nocere; et etiamdio orione constellatione terribile fa nel mare grandissimo impeto et danno contra i naviganti; et per il simile Eolo re di venti turbato fa sentire al mare et allaere et a noi con li soi tempestuosi fiati et procellose ruine”

Sometimes in Filelfo editions it is XXXIII
https://books.google.fr/books?id=7yI8AA ... ti&f=false

And Saturn and Mars, unfortunate (malefic) planets, become more daring to harm: and also Orion, a terrible constellation, in the sea makes great motion and damage against sailors: and likewise Aeolus, king of troubled winds, makes the sea and the air and us feel with his tempestuous winds and stormy ruination.

(the machine translation Deepl actually did a fairly good job. I suppose many people use it for literary Italian, which means a lot of corrections and old orthography have gone into the machine)

Alessandro Vellutello also wrote a commentary, here is a 1541 edition, the poems are not numbered -
https://books.google.fr/books?id=dYIiXG ... 22&f=false

But it's clear that Petrarch is not invoking him as a symbol of warm springtime breezes, and happy coupling, as Dante does.

But both certainly make the choice of Aeolus in the roster more explicable.

I don't think it requires a pre or post-marriage date, though, or marriage at all. As one of these princes, Filippo Maria was able to chose any lover he wanted, as his father had done, and most of his contemporaries did. Maybe he was expected to; the children could always be legitimized later. So if there is a subtle urging to love in Marziano's text, it need not be technical "marriage," which a date between 1412 and 1418 would presume anyway; it would just be the kind of coupling described in the Aeolus chapter - natural. They called bastards "natural" children, anyway.

The marriage to Beatrice was purely tactical. Filippo Maria had no need to get rid of her, any more than he did Maria later; she could presumably do as she wished, as long as she didn't meddle or cause a scandal. I tend to believe that she did end up plotting against him, and this is why he took the action he did.
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