Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#11
Crossposted - we definitely have it, see my cross post above yours :D

Irio da Venegono = Irius de Venegono

Irio da Venegono chancellor of Francesco Sforza. He is a person who often appears in the Sforza correspondence in the very rich State Archives of Milan, but almost unknown to the good Varesini. Irius de Venegono fil. domini Christofori figured as chancellor of the Duke of Milan from 1452; he was also an imperial notary and had a brother by the name of Antonio. In 1463, and many years later, he lived in Milan in Porta Nuova, in the parish of S. Bartolomeo --- [end of snippet view]

Periodico, Volume 15
Società storica comense (Italy)
Società storica comense, 1903 - Como (Italy)

SteveM
Image

Ego Irius de Venegono Christofori Civis Mediolani Porta Nova, Parochia Sancti Bartholomai intus praelibati Illustrissimi Domini Ducis Mediolani Cancellarius, ac publicus Imperiali & Ducali auctoritatibus Notarius

I am Irio of Venegono son of Christopher, citizen of Milan, Port Nova in the Parish of St. Bartholomew, representative of the illustrious Duke of Milan, Chancellor and public Notary by Imperial & Ducal authority ----

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=lG ... J&pg=PA701
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#12
SteveM wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 22:06
Crossposted - we definitely have it, see my cross post above yours :D

Ireo da Venegono = Ireus de Venegono

Irio da Venegono chancellor of Francesco Sforza. He is a person who often appears in the Sforza correspondence in the very rich State Archives of Milan, but almost unknown to the good Varesini. Irius de Venegono fil. domini Christofori figured as chancellor of the Duke of Milan from 1452; he was also an imperial notary and had a brother by the name of Antonio. In 1463, and many years later, he lived in Milan in Porta Nuova, in the parish of S. Bartolomeo --- [end of snippet view]

Periodico, Volume 15
Società storica comense (Italy)
Società storica comense, 1903 - Como (Italy)
Great! Excellent work. Now for Mike to get it to Andrea, and we'll have tidied up that bit of dust.

BTW, why do you consistently type "e" for "i" in the name? Got Irenaeus on the brain? :D
Image

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#14
SteveM wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 22:14
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 22:12


BTW, why do you consistently type "e" for "i" in the name? Got Irenaeus on the brain? ;)
crossposted again - had just noticed that myself and gone back to edit it --
I guessed, because it was consistent, that it might a keyboard issue, like a Turkish keyboard or something. I'm French AZERTY, English ones are QWERTY, so the E is in the same place on those ones.
Image

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#15
SteveM wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 21:07

He is also at a much later date listed as among the company of the notaries and justices sent to Sforza's ambassador in Naples re: the arrangements of the marriage of Ippolita Sforza:

"Il gruppo fondamentale era costituito dai notai e giudici: Candido Porri causidicus et notarius publicus, Iri da Venegono, bonifacio Aliprando, cancelliere segreto, e Nicola Pizono, ufficiale ducale di Pavia, tutti iudices ad contractus et notarii imperiali ac regia auctoritate; l’istruzione generale e quelle particolari specificavano che Candido Porro e Iri da Venegono avevanola responsabilità di rogare «tuti li instrumenti cossì de la dote de la illustrissima hipolita Maria, nostra figliola et de domina elionora con Sforza et de Drusiana con el conte Jacomo"
We also see his name latinized here - Among the diplomats listed in first column beneath LXIII {Marriage of Alphonso of Aragon and Ippolita Maria Sforza}

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=-u ... &q&f=false
Image
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
05 Dec 2017, 22:03
It looks like it might be a real name then, Irio might mean Iris, the flower.
As well as Iri, Irio, Irius his name is also spelt Iris :

Così ad esempio del suo interessamento per il monastero di Cernobbio di cui ci resta menzione solo attraverso una lettera del cancelliere ducale Iris da Venegono a Giovanni Simonetta

Under which he is also recorded as a Secretary to Bona of Savoy, Duchess of Milan
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#16
Thanks for all the legwork, Steve and Ross. I will alert Andrea. So is his name there as an indication that a copy was sent to him, like our "cc"? Or is he a co-signer of the letter? I don't know their conventions.

Sorry for the late reply, too. I have been fussing with Andrea over little details, such as the title (we went back to his original English title, as "golden" seems to be what he meant). Also, he rewrote the two paragraphs before and one after the Cicco letter, after some discussion between us. The object was to get the best presentation of his argument that the cards made for would have been like those extant which seem to be from the Filippo Maria Visconti years. I assume that is as opposed to the less "dorato" style of the PMB, although I didn't get a clarification about this.

One remaining issue has to do with whether in the quote "quelle carte de triumphi che se fanno a Cremona", apparently from Bianca Maria's letter but Malatesta's request, which I persuaded Andrea to include and is part of the title of the 2013 Brera catalog for their "tarocchi dei Bembo" exhibition. Should the quote actually be "quelle carte de triumphi che se ne fanno a Cremona", that is, with a "ne" between "se" and "Fanno", as Dummett quotes Gregory 1958 in his 2007 Artibus article. Andrea at the moment is leaving out the "ne", because 2013 is later than 1958. My objection is that they never give a reference for that quote. It isn't even in Bandera and Tanzi's text that I can find. In contrast, Dummett's is quite precise:. But is Gregory's reliable, as she gave a slightly different version in 1940? Here is Dummett ("Six XV-Century Tarot Cards: Who Painted Them? Artibus et Historiae, Vol. 28, No. 56 (2007), p. 22:
From a letter of 1451 from Bianca Maria Visconti to her husband Francesco Sforza, asking him to send to Sigismondo Malatesta, lord of Rimini, a pack of Tarot cards of the kind made in Cremona, which he had asked for the previous autumn, we may infer that Cremona was especially renowned for hand-painted playing cards of this kind. (39)
And footnote 39, on p. 26:
39. Gregory 1940, p. 157, quotes this letter, asking the Duke to send to Sigismondo Malatesta a pack of "carte da trionfi de quelle fatte a Cremona", together with a straw hat, another speciality for which Cremona was famous. She quotes it again in Gregory 1958, p. 32, where the phrase is given slightly differently as "quelle carte da trionfi che se ne fanno a Cremona".
The two works by Winifred Terni de Gregory are Bianca Maria Visconti, duchessa di Milano, 1940, and Pittura artigiana lombarda del Rinascimento, 1958. Andrea also seems to remember from somewhere a version with "como" in it. This doesn't affect the meaning at all, but it would be nice to get the quote right!

Any further clarification on this point, or anything else in the essay and its translation, would be appreciated.

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#17
mikeh wrote:
06 Dec 2017, 14:22
Thanks for all the legwork, Steve and Ross. I will alert Andrea. So is his name there as an indication that a copy was sent to him, like our "cc"? Or is he a co-signer of the letter? I don't know their conventions.
There is a specific formula for something similar to our 'cc' [off the top of my head something like 'in simili forma: *list of names*') - so I think without any such formula it means he is a co-signer -

If that is there are indeed two signatures - as I noted before, in the pdf archive this particular letter is only signed by Irius, not Chicus?

So there is an error of transcription in one of our sources? The pdf one is pretty detailed, noting erasures, margin notes, interlinear inclusions etc, and the source (the Lombardo Institute: Academy of Sciences and Letters) reputable --

Here again is the link:
http://www.istitutolombardo.it/pdf/07missive.pdf

The letter as transcribed there:

348v Antonio Trecco.
Perché el magnifico signore Sigismondo ha rechesto ad la illustrissima madonna
Bianca, nostra consorte, uno paro de carte da triumpho per zugare, ti commettimo et
volemo che subito ne debii fare fare uno paro de belle quanto più serrà possibile, pincte
et ordinate cum le arme ducale et a l’insegne nostre et mandaraile subito como seranno
facte.
Apud Calvisanum, xxviii octobris 1452.
Nonobstante quello dicemo di sopra de mandarne qui le dicte carte, volemo le retegne
lì et ne avisi come serrano facte. et similmente retegni tre berrette quale te mandarà
Mattheo da Pesaro.
Data ut supra.
Irius.


And the home page of the Instite:
http://www.istitutolombardo.it/index.html

Searching through the rest of the PDF'd archives the only others I could find (searching on 'triu' & 'trio') are the well known:

for December 11, 1450:

RICHIESTA AD ANTONIO TRECCO DI FAR AVERE AL DUCA DUE PAIA DI CARTE DEI TRIONFI O D’
ALTRO TIPO PER IL 13 DEL MESE
1450 dicembre 11, Milano.
Antonio Trecho.
Scriptum fuit Antonio quod micteret domino paria duo cartarum a triumphis, vel paria duo
aliarum cartarum, et cetera, per totum diem xiii decembris.
Laude, xi decembris 1450.
Iohannes.

FRANCESCO SFORZA SOLLECITA ANTONIO TRECO, TESORIERE, A FARGLI AVERE DUE PAIA DI CARTE
TRIONFO O, SE NON GLI RIESCE DI TROVARLE, DUE ALTRE MOLTO BELLE PAIA DI CARTE DA GIOCO.
1450 dicembre 11, Lodi.
Antonio Trecho texaurario.
Voliamo subito recevuta questa per uno cavallaro ad posta, ne detti mandare doe para de carte
de triumphi, delle più belle poray trovare et non trovando dicti triomphi, voglie mandare doe altre
para de carte da giocare, pur delle più belle poray havere, quale fa che habbiamo qui domenica
per tutto el di che sarà adi xiii del presente.
Data Laude, die xi decembris 1450.
Franciscus Sfortia Vicecomes manu propria subscripsit.
Cichus.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#18
Good question, Steve, about who signed the letter, whether it was just Irio or both Irio and Cicco. I will forward the link to your post and ask Andrea what he thinks.

Thanks also for giving us the complete text of the 1450 letter and where to find it. Bandera and Tanzi quote a few words from that letter without giving a source.

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#19
The paragraph preceding the letter:

In October of 1452 he sent to Bianca Maria Visconti, wife of Duke Francesco Sforza, a letter requesting a pack "che se fanno a Cremona" (as are made in Cremona), a request that Bianca Maria transmitted to her husband. We know of this from a letter dated 28 October 1452 that Francesco's secretary Simonetta, called Cicco, on behalf of the Duke himself, sent to Antonio Trecco (Trecho), ducal treasurer of Cremona, to make the required cards:


Maybe it is my poor reading but I found thIs somewhat confusing - I initially thought 'but the letter doesn't mention anything about being made in Cremona'? Then I realized you must only mean that it shows that Sigismondo wrote to Bianca requesting a pack of cards and she passed on the request to Francesco - but by emphasizing the 'as made in Cremona' confuses that as we don't 'know this' from the quoted {Ireus} letter at all -- but it does give us partial confirmation for the letter quoted by Gregory --

Does Gregory give a source? And is Gregory the [misquoted] source for the others?
mikeh wrote:
07 Dec 2017, 01:04
Thanks also for giving us the complete text of the 1450 letter and where to find it. Bandera and Tanzi quote a few words from that letter without giving a source.
The text of the one, with Kaplan's translation is on Huck's* site (together with other documents and translations by Ross and others) :

http://trionfi.com/0/e/06/

SteveM

*Anyone heard from Huck? Is he OK?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Le Tarot cultural association News 2017

#20
It is coming back to me that a few of us made a determined search on this topic in 2010, and none of us could find the letter of Malatesta to Bianca Maria requesting the cards, nor her letter to Francesco asking him to procure them in Cremona.

This thread on this site discusses it -
http://www.forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=8068

And Huck's posts ##5 and 10 here at Aeclectic -
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=2402925

I see in one of Huck's posts in the first thread that Franco Pratesi had looked in Gregory and found nothing (Huck mistakenly writes "1440" and "1458" for Gregory's dates of 1940 and 1958 respectively - a common enough error when most of your work is in the 15th century) . No reference, that is.

So, as far as the "correct quote" that Andrea and Mike are looking for, the answer is to take your pick of 1940 or 1958, since Gregory is the only source.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron