Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 08 Jun 2017, 09:56

Finally I was able to log in.
Thanks for publishing meanwhile.

About FAMA VOLAT ans SPQR :
Image
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BOUGEAREL Alain
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Location: Avignon France
Aliases: Alain BOUGEAREL

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby mikeh on 09 Jun 2017, 11:31

In what early decks, tarot or otherwise, do the words "FAMA VOLAT" appear? I know the Minchiate Renomme (Angel) card, Any others?
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Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 09 Jun 2017, 19:57

Image

Interesting material in a post of 2015 of huck about Fama Volat responding to ross about the TdChVI order and the Minchiate
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=975&start=140#p14945

Image

Image
Image

Image
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BOUGEAREL Alain
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Location: Avignon France
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 10 Jun 2017, 08:50

Kwaw had found a detail of a Cassone dated 1466
Could have been for the marriage of Nannina de Medicis and Bernardo_Rucellai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nannina_de%27_Medici
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardo_Rucellai

Charioter with Stemma of the Medicis associated to SPQR.
Of interest to note that there are in fact 2 SPQR on Fool and Rider
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/

Notice of the Cassone :
http://collections.lesartsdecoratifs.fr ... ?mode=list

I would emphase on the possible origin : the workshop of Giovanni di ser Giovanni dit le Scheggia (entourage de) , peintre, 1466 - the same suspected by some of us as the artist of the TdChVI.
http://trionfi.com/evx-lo-scheggia
Another workshop possible is the one of Paolo Uccello : "il pourrait appartenir à une ancienne famille florentine exilée à Bologne, les Ucceli. "
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Uccello
Interesting ...anyway we have to go deeper in the post numbering of the TdChVI
"1) La datation est issue des résultats de l’examen effectué par le Laboratoire de Recherche des Musées du Louvre (1) .
Or, comme le souligne Thierry Depaulis : ils » sont formels : les pigments employés ne permettent pas d’aller au-delà d’une datation très générale. La présence de rabats, que souligne le rapport d’analyse, témoigne en faveur d’une fabrication tardive, même si, manifestement, le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée, comme c’est aussi le cas pour les cartes de la Collection Rothschild » (1)

2)L’Ordre des Atouts est à rapprocher de l’ordre de la tradition bolonaise donc de Bologne. Toutefois les numéros des cartes sont postérieurs aux peintures elles-mêmes.
Mais le TdChVI est-il à l’origine de cette tradition ou bien s’en inspire-t-il?

« Les chiffres indiqués sont ceux lisibles, partiellement ou non, en haut des cartes – sauf pour le Pendu, où le chiffre est inscrit en bas, « à l’envers ». Ces chiffres romains sont tracés à l’encre et paraissent légèrement postérieurs à la réalisation des cartes (première moitié du XVIè siècle au plus tard) » (1)

« Michael Dummett s’est penché sur les chiffres romains inscrits à l’encre sur le haut des cartes (sauf pour le cas du Pendu) et partiellement rognés : on peut ainsi reconstituer un ordre des Atouts qui paraît proche de la tradition bolonaise… » […] « A moins que les tarots de Bologne ne se soient inspirés de celui-ci »(1)

(1) Bibliographie : Thierry Depaulis, Tarot , Jeu et Magie, pp 40 – 41 Bibliothèque Nationale, 1984"

See : http://traditiontarot.com/viewtopic.php ... 590#p13590



Image
More information can be found here:
http://collections.lesartsdecoratifs.fr ... ?mode=list

Notice :
[Scène de triomphe]

Titre:
[Scène de triomphe]
Dénomination:
Panneau de cassone
Création:
Giovanni di ser Giovanni dit le Scheggia (entourage de) , peintre, 1466
Matières et techniques:
tempera sur bois
Mesures:
H. cm : 42 - l. cm : 143
Sujet représenté:
ville (une), architecture, triomphe romain, défilé militaire, prisonnier
Personne représentée:
Scipion l'Africain
Evénement représenté:
HISTOIRE
Numéro d'inventaire:
PE 88
Situation:
Exposé
Acquisition/dépôt:
legs Emile Peyre, 1905


The Cassone could be attributed or to the workshop of Paolo Uccello or to the circle of circle of Giovanni di Ser Giovanni 'lo Scheggia - that is the same we suspect to be tha artist of te TdChVI ....

Giovanni di ser Giovanni dit le Scheggia (entourage de) , peintre, 1466


"D) Quel pourrait être le peintre des images du TdChVI ?
Giovanni di ser Giovanni Guidi (nommé Scheggia) peintre et miniaturiste Italien, San Giovanni Valdarno 1406–1486 serait un candidat tout a fait plausible pour la réalisation des images de ce jeu - et ce, pour deux raisons.
(1) Il est un peintre documenté comme produisant des cartes à jouer (cf Franco Pratesi sur http://trionfi.com/evx-lo-scheggia);
(2) Il a peint le plateau de naissance illustrant le «triomphe de la renommée» pour la famille Médici à l'occasion de la naissance de Lorenzo qui devint «Il Magnifico» (ibid). Par conséquent, Scheggia serait un choix naturel du peintre des cartes de triomphes pour la même famille, peut-être pour le même Lorenzo.
(Remerciements à M. Howard pour sa reformulation de cette hypothèse)" [cf : http://traditiontarot.com/viewtopic.php ... 590#p13590]

Image

About the Triomphe scene on the Cassone with arms of Medicis and SPQR

Comment signed Roel Renmans :
"1466 - 'Triumph scene, panel of a marriage chest (cassone)' (circle of Giovanni di Ser Giovanni 'lo Scheggia'), Firenze, Musée des Arts Décoratifs, Paris, France
This panel belonged to a marriage chest (called a cassone in Italian), which was made for the marriage of Bernardo Rucellai and Nannina de' Medici in 1466 in Florence.
Another panel from the same cassone shows a battle scene, which is also on display in the Musée des Arts Décoratifs. Both families' arms are depicted in the painting.

Apparently, there is no concensus on who painted the panels. Some sources mention an artist from the workshop of Paolo Uccello, others believe him to be an artist from the circle of the well-known cassone-painter Giovanni di Ser Giovanni "lo Scheggia".

The Triumph scene might depict Julius Caesar after the Battle of Pharsalus against Pompey, seated on a golden wagon accompanied by his army. All roman soldiers wear contemporary arms and armour, including barbutes and armets. One soldiers seems to wear a winged helmet, one of few vestimentary references to Caesar's time.

More information can be found here: http://collections.lesartsdecoratifs.fr ... ?mode=list "

Image

Images :
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/

Two SPQR : https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/
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BOUGEAREL Alain
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Location: Avignon France
Aliases: Alain BOUGEAREL

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby mikeh on 10 Jun 2017, 22:45

I did not understand the point made by Depaulis about the flaps, rabats, 2nd sentence below:
Or, comme le souligne Thierry Depaulis : ils » sont formels : les pigments employés ne permettent pas d’aller au-delà d’une datation très générale. La présence de rabats, que souligne le rapport d’analyse, témoigne en faveur d’une fabrication tardive, même si, manifestement, le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée, comme c’est aussi le cas pour les cartes de la Collection Rothschild

Why a "late manufacture" (fabrication tardive), and how late? How do we know that early decks did not have flaps? Adrian interpreted the Beinecke's report on the Cary-Yale as suggesting that it had flaps. (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1084&p=18358&hilit=thickness#p18358). Its cards are certainly thicker on the borders than in the interior. I recall that the curator at the Morgan did not bother to check the borders vs. interiors. From him all that came out was that the 6 "2nd artist" cards were significantly thinner than the other ones.

But I am not sure I understand "le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée" correctly. GoogleTranslate gives "the drawing and the painting were placed once each card mounted", which does not make definite sense in English. Perhaps you can help with the translation.

One other thing: it seems significant that the Fool is sitting on the chariot, as if to remind the triumphator not to let fame go to his head.
mikeh
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Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby Kate on 10 Jun 2017, 23:57

BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: The Triumph scene might depict Julius Caesar after the Battle of Pharsalus against Pompey, seated on a golden wagon accompanied by his army. All roman soldiers wear contemporary arms and armour, including barbutes and armets. One soldiers seems to wear a winged helmet, one of few vestimentary references to Caesar's time.


Or a triumph of Scipio Africanus following the Battle of Zama which, in my personal opinion, would be more appropriate. (Pompey represented the Senate at Pharsalus).

Of some interest, Scipio Africanus was held to be a paradigm of moderation (=temperance) in the Renaissance.

[img]https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/29766220323/in/photostream/
[/img]
Kate
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Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 11 Jun 2017, 09:31

mikeh wrote:I did not understand the point made by Depaulis about the flaps, rabats, 2nd sentence below:
Or, comme le souligne Thierry Depaulis : ils » sont formels : les pigments employés ne permettent pas d’aller au-delà d’une datation très générale. La présence de rabats, que souligne le rapport d’analyse, témoigne en faveur d’une fabrication tardive, même si, manifestement, le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée, comme c’est aussi le cas pour les cartes de la Collection Rothschild

Why a "late manufacture" (fabrication tardive), and how late? How do we know that early decks did not have flaps? Adrian interpreted the Beinecke's report on the Cary-Yale as suggesting that it had flaps. (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1084&p=18358&hilit=thickness#p18358). Its cards are certainly thicker on the borders than in the interior. I recall that the curator at the Morgan did not bother to check the borders vs. interiors. From him all that came out was that the 6 "2nd artist" cards were significantly thinner than the other ones.

But I am not sure I understand "le dessin et la peinture ont été posés une fois chaque carte montée" correctly. GoogleTranslate gives "the drawing and the painting were placed once each card mounted", which does not make definite sense in English. Perhaps you can help with the translation.

Mikeh
Well your translation is ok.
The pigments only give a general datation.
About the post writing, a posteriori without dates, of the numbers on the prior first unumbered images, I am not a specialistbut that's what the scientific analysis states.
Thierry Depaulis, Tarot , Jeu et Magie, pp 40 – 41 Bibliothèque Nationale, 1984"
Maybe Ross can be of some help here...

You wrote
"One other thing: it seems significant that the Fool is sitting on the chariot, as if to remind the triumphator not to let fame go to his head."
The Charioter has the Medicis Stemma.
Image
The Fool different from the Charioter is, yes, sitting on the Chariot.
I had missed that point.
Good observation.
I had only seen the 2 SPQR : one on Fool and behind a horse rider.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/
Roman glory SPQR (Fama?) is not eternal : Fama Volat...So maybe this was the idea...
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BOUGEAREL Alain
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Aliases: Alain BOUGEAREL

Re: Pseudo Charles VI Tarot : Exhibit on line Bnf

Postby BOUGEAREL Alain on 11 Jun 2017, 09:40

Kate wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: The Triumph scene might depict Julius Caesar after the Battle of Pharsalus against Pompey, seated on a golden wagon accompanied by his army. All roman soldiers wear contemporary arms and armour, including barbutes and armets. One soldiers seems to wear a winged helmet, one of few vestimentary references to Caesar's time.


Or a triumph of Scipio Africanus following the Battle of Zama which, in my personal opinion, would be more appropriate. (Pompey represented the Senate at Pharsalus).

Of some interest, Scipio Africanus was held to be a paradigm of moderation (=temperance) in the Renaissance.

[img]https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/29766220323/in/photostream/
[/img]


Yes Kate.
The comment I quoted was from : Roel Renmans
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/

But, the Notice of the Musée des Arts décoratifs offers :
Personne représentée: Scipion l'Africain
Notice : http://collections.lesartsdecoratifs.fr ... ?mode=list

PS
The same Roel Renmans offers also Uccello as a possible painter.
But the Notice , no.

Links :
Notice : http://collections.lesartsdecoratifs.fr ... ?mode=list
Roel Renmans : https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... otostream/
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BOUGEAREL Alain
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Location: Avignon France
Aliases: Alain BOUGEAREL

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