Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genre

#1
Marziano’s literary genre for the 16 gods/heroes is the Ovide moralisé/moralizatus, of which he necessarily abridges, because he started with cards as his game and the ‘fourfold’ result of the Italian suit court cards is 16.

The implications are that Marziano’s project has very little to do with the standard trumps of trionfi, which are clearly not derived from Ovid. The cornerstone for my argument will be the linked pdf article by Dieter Blume: '
'Visualizing Metamorphosis. Picturing the Metamorphoses of Ovid in Fourteen-Century Italy', in: Troianalexandrina. Anuario sobre literatura medival de materia clásice, Bd. 14 (2014), S. 183 - 212. http://www.kunstgeschichte.uni-jena.de/ ... +Italy.pdf

What is the Ovide moralisé? It was first produced by a Franciscan friar for Queen Jeanne de Bourgogne (1293-1329):
The first complete translation into French of Ovid’s Metamorphoses, the Ovid moralisé is also the most ambitiously glossed and the most influential. Unlike some of the other exegetes of the Metamorphoses, the Ovide moralisé poet does not see his task as being to Christianize Ovid by attributing to him some insight into the Christian revelation. The meanings the moralist claims to find are potentially recoverable from the pagan work itself, provided it is read from the perspective of faith. (Sarah Kay, The Place of Thought: The Complexity of One in Late Medieval French Didactic Poetry, 2007: 43).
Marziano’s own preface to his pagan pastime reflects an even more liberal time, but he still rather guiltily introduces the subject of a game by repeatedly insisting that the subjects themselves are in fact virtuous – i.e., Marziano himself is moralizing pagan gods, just as the genre of the Ovide moralisé.
Seeing that it is inevitable for virtuous toil to be weakened by fatigue, if the time be excessive, it might be asked whether it be fitting for a man to find recreation from the weariness of virtue in some kind of game….Certainly, the virtuous man, who happens to be ruled by right reason, should be able to remain firm in ethical conduct and in honourable reasoning during these activities. Thus I settled upon that sort of game, which would be accommodated to the place and person, of such character that it somehow shows its powers, and would also be enjoyable, and that it be fitted to the serious man wearied of virtue….Consider therefore this game, most illustrious Duke, following a fourfold order, by which you may give attention to serious and important things, if you play at it. Sometimes it is pleasing to be thus diverted, and you will be delighted therein. And it is more pleasing, since through the keeness of your own acumen you dedicated several to be noted and celebrated Heroes, renowned models of virtue, whom mighty greatness made gods, as well as to ensure their remembrance by posterity. Thus by observation of them, be ready to be aroused to virtue. (Ross Caldwell translation)
The earliest history of the Ovid tradition:
1315 and1318: the anonymous Ovide moralisé was written in the vernacular, instead of Latin, at the request of the French, queen Jeanne de Bourgogne

1320: Giovanni del Virgilio lectured on it University of Bologna, where “Virgilio and his students were mainly interested in the erotic sections of the text” (Blume 185)

1334: Florentine notary Arrigo Simintend redacted Metamorphoses into the Florentine volgare. Between 1350 and 1360 later Florentine ‘interactive readers’ added illustrations to the text, including Daphne (Blume, 194).

1340 Pierre Bersuire [Berchorius] wrote the Ovidius moralizatus at the Papal court of Avignon, a sort of biblical commentary in which 80 MS survive, the earliest illustrated version being from Bologna, dated between 1350-1360, most likely for Bruzio Visconti as the erased viper stemmi was rediscovered, among other clues (Blue, 186-87).

Bruzio Visconti was the brother of the signore of Milan, Lucchino Visconti, and ruled Lodi, but was disposed after attempting a coup on his cousin’s domain of Bologna. Republican Florence needs no explanatory note. So two of the first pictorial instances pit a courtly versus a Republican/urban readership, on which Blume elaborates:
Florentine readers focused their drawings on those moments in the fables in which the emotional tension reached its peak, most of the times using one picture to refer to a whole series of events. Only in very scarce occasions the results of these metamorphoses were depicted, although the transformation processes as such were never displayed. By contrast, the Bolognese painters who illustrated the Ovidius moralizatus for Bruzio Visconti preferred to develop comprehensive narrative cycles with multiple scenes to show these episodes step by step and a degree of detail that equated that of the textual source. Besides, these artists were specifically interested in the process of transformation, in the passing from one state into another and the shifting of form from a human being into an animal or a plant. (Blume, 197)
I would also point out that the Bologna-produced version for Bruzio has shared interest with the contemporary Trecento Lombard handbooks on activities and foods, the Tacuinum Sanitatis. Even in those works there is a bit of a suggestion of transformation, as in this wheat harvest scene in which a peasant is virtually transformed into what he harvests, almost in the posture of Daphne becoming laurel:
Image

As Blume also points out, Daphne is ‘the poetic centerpiece in the Metamorphoses’ (194), which leads me to copy/paste the relevant points made previously in this thread, ‘The Marziano/Michelino deck - a gift for Agnese del Maino?’ viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1029
2. Daphne is a “central” motif of the Marziano deck, as proposed by Huck: http://trionfi.com/daphne-in-tarot, albeit I disagree with Huck’s theory of why Aeolus was included. The 12 standard gods need no explanation and Hercules inclusion to Olympus has a classical pedigree, so that leaves Aeolus, Daphne and Eros as unexplained. In the first book of Ovid’s Metamorphoses, however, these three figures are all mentioned; a summary of Metamorphoses 1. 262 ff: the destruction of wayward mankind involves Zeus calling upon Aeolus to release his winds from his famous cave, releasing storms of blinding rain from heaven. The story of mankind’s rebirth from the flood via the story of Deucalion/Pyrrha is then told, with earth then sending out Python against mankind. Python is slain by Apollo who then mocks Eros’ puny bow, with Venus’ son in turn smiting the sun god with his erotic bow with irrational love for Daphne. Why would any of this appeal to Visconti? Visconti, descended from the 12 gods via Venus and Anchises, had this mythical genealogy also painted by Michelino. Visconti, as Hirsh has shown in her discussion of Visconti manuscripts (discussed here viewtopic.php?f=11&t=983&p=14572&hilit= ... own#p14572 ), identified with the sun and indeed, one of their main stemma is the radiate (turtle)dove. Germane to the Marziano deck, within his suit of Turtledoves in the category of “virginities” we find Daphne. Filippo, descended from the gods like an Apollo, has reached out for his own Daphne – Agnese, who nonetheless retains some semblance of purity in his eyes. This is an illicit love and condemned by the goddess of rightful wedlock, Hera, who in turn controls Aeolus. Turning to perhaps an even more famous text in medieval Italy, we find in Virgil’s Aeneid 1. 50 ff, Juno/Hera calling on Aiolos to send a storm to destroy the fleet of the Trojan hero Aeneas. In fact Marziano specifically singles out Virgil for his description of this card (“...to his authority it was conceded, like Virgil, to soothe the waves, and by the wind to raise them, and in whatever way to agitate in all respects the kingdom of Neptune.”). Aiolos/Aeolus then is an enemy of mankind generally (Ovid) and specifically against the origin of Visconti’s line, the Trojan Aeneas (Virgil). Aiolus is present as “dragon" slayed by Visconti's line, that triumph proving his courtly worth for Agnes/Daphne.
While Blume’s focus is on contrasting a Florentine and Visconti exemplar from the Trecento, the Ovid moralisé continued to be made throughout the following century as the most important literary tradition disseminated from France, even crossing over into novelties such as Christine de Pizan’s L'Epistre d'Othea, contemporary to the time of Marziano’s deck of 1418. Apollo and Daphne from that work (Paris ca. 1410-1414, BL, Harley 4431, fol. 134): http://66.media.tumblr.com/21ffa81a25ab ... 1_1280.jpg

Marziano’s description of the gods and heroes is eclectic and does not closely follow the Ovidian pictorial tradition, even though Ovid clearly determined the subjects (perhaps he wanted to show off his own erudition). Marziano’s description of Cupid - ‘girded with human hearts’ - however, does point to a specific pictorial influence that appeared just before Marziano: Barberino’s Documenti d'Amore (c. 1309-1314) http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0epQRWjQb3E/V ... berino.jpg

While the artist of the Barberino manuscript has chosen to gird Cupid’s mount with hearts instead of the boy himself, the influence on Marziano is clear. Moreover, the vertical arrangement of Cupid above his human targets with spear-length arrows being thrust downwards matches the same vertical arrangement of the PMB and CY Love trumps, albeit the latter do not have the string of hearts nor talon feet. By the same token, the Visconti-Sforza cards have no resemblance to the Petrarch pictorial tradition of a Cupid with bow and arrow upon a cart, driving his human targets before him (i.e., horizontally).
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Barbarino and PMB-CY love cards.jpg
(50.48 KiB) Not downloaded yet
To recap:
* Marziano is careful to connect his game of pagan gods/heroes - all in Ovid - to virtue, as dictated by the Ovide moralisé genre.
• There isn’t anything inherently arcane/notable about the number 16 - that is the established number of the Italian court cards (“ranks of kings” per Marziano) over which ‘celestials’ were set, in the related manner of Pizan’s early ‘children of the planets’, also illustrated in her Epître d'Othéa, as in the case of Venus here:
Image

• Daphne is central to Ovid and is not surprisingly selected in Marziano’s abridged series of gods and heroes. The other gods not part of the canonical 12+Hercules - Aeolus, Daphne and Eros – lead up to that myth or are directly connected to the Apollo-Daphne story that is ‘central’ to Ovid’s metamorphoses.
• A Visconti was a patron of an illustrated Ovid that obviously survived him (and one would presume stayed in the family or in Lombard).

In closing, I ask: how is Marziano’s flirtation with the Ovid genre, then, an exemplar of tarot? Indeed, how does Ovid directly inform tarot’s trumps? And what does any of this have to do with Petrarch as a supposed influence on the earliest tarot?

Phaeded

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#2
Good eye, Phaeded, on the hearts, and tracing the image from Barberino to Marziano. I am not familiar with Cupid's being portrayed as "gird with hearts" elsewhere; so it's possible that Marziano was inspired to that description from seeing the Barberino illumination in Florence. I wonder if there are any more details like that. I can't see any relationship to the PMB or CY; putting him in the sky above people was the natural place to put him, and as far as standing, it is possible that he was represented by Michelino in that way, following Marziano, but I can't see how the PMB designer would have known or cared to remember that. Surely there were already pictures of Cupid standing.

I don't doubt that Ovid is a major source for Marziano, as he was for many. I am not sure that he is the source, as most of the 12 gods and 4 demigods have multiple sources, unless there is something unique to Ovid in all of Marziano's descriptions. I once had occasion to wonder why both Vesta and Dionysus are on Marziano's list, but not Vulcan. Looking in Ovid's book and the standard references to Vesta, I couldn't even find Vesta mentioned in it (although she is in the Fasti); perhaps I have missed something.

Moralizing mythological and sacred texts is as old as the Hellenistic commentaries on Homer. In Christianity, the first famous moralizer was Fulgentius; after finishing the tales of the Greco-Roman gods (for which he is one important source), he went on to tackle the Aeneid, in some ways, I think I recall, Petrarch in a letter actually accepting as reasonable, for example, that Aeneas's separation from Dido represented the overcoming of lust, and her suicide represented the resulting extinction of lust in the soul (added later: I found the quote, at viewtopic.php?f=23&t=385&start=100;#p14232) In the Middle Ages there was also a Fulgentius Metaphoralis, discussed at length by Seznec (and by me somewhere here).

We have already discussed ad nauseam how Marziano's deck relates to tarot, so I won't repeat it now. I haven't tried to compare Marziano's descriptions, or Ovid's, to details in the CY and PMB. Maybe that's worth doing. Offhand I can't see any relevance of any of what you've presented here for the issue of whether the tarot sequence at one point was influenced by the Petrarch poems' six titles, sequence, or content, nor of any direct relationship of Ovid or Ovid moralized to the tarot. Perhaps you have something in mind. If so, I am all ears. I have indeed wondered about the commentaries that went with the moralizations, whether there might be something of interest there to us. Even more, I've wondered about the commentaries on Petrarch and Boccaccio. If you know of any that are accessible, such as Filelfo's, I would also be all ears.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#3
Phaeded ...
In closing, I ask: how is Marziano’s flirtation with the Ovid genre, then, an exemplar of tarot? Indeed, how does Ovid directly inform tarot’s trumps? And what does any of this have to do with Petrarch as a supposed influence on the earliest tarot?
Petrarch and Laura ... Laura means the tree, from which the Pythian games took their signs for victorious sportsmen.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1108

Image


Petrarch became "Poetus Laureatus" in 1341.

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Daphne (griechisch Δάφνη „Lorbeer“), älter auch Dafne, neugriechische Umschrift Dafni
"Lorbeerbaum" is the German expression for the Daphne tree (Laura nobilis). Nowadays "Daphne" is used for "Seidelbast", English "Daphne" (plant).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_(plant)

German wiki for "Seidelbast" knows:
Die Erstveröffentlichung des Gattungsnamens Daphne erfolgte 1753 durch Carl von Linné in Species Plantarum, 1, S. 356. Typusart ist Daphne laureola L.. Synonyme für Daphne L. sind Farreria I.B.Balfour & W.W.Smith ex Farrer, Pentathymelaea Lecomte und Scopolia L..

Der botanische Gattungsname Daphne leitet sich von der Nymphe Daphne her. Sie wurde von ihrem Vater Peneios in einen Lorbeerbaum verwandelt, um sie vor ihrem Verfolger Apollon zu schützen. Die Blätter einiger Seidelbast-Arten ähneln denen des Lorbeerbaumes, daher erhielt die Gattung den Namen Daphne.
Daphne was used first by Cal von Linné in 1753. The leaves of Seidelbast are similar to the leaves of Lorbeer.

************

Daphne appears for sure before 1425 in the Michelino deck. All, what we know, F.M. Visconti already had a favor for Petrarca. Also he had a favor for young girls, reading the Canzonieri.Whatever this means. This long before the decks were called "Trionfi" decks.

The four lowest trumps of the Michelino deck ...

Amor ... Love
Daphne ... Chastity
Aeolus ... (known to accompany Fama by Chaucer)
Hercules ... (known as an astronom by Greek traditions, with 12 works to do) ... Father Time ?

*********

The relationship to Agnese del Maino was already discussed in the earliest times with the Michelino deck.

Thanks for the Bruzio connection. I didn't know that.

********

The 12 Olympic gods (already present in old antique times, and then also in different compositions) likely (my suspicion) became part of the discussions, when the Manilius text arrived from the detection by Poggio (during the council of Constance).
The earlier eschecs amoureux (also with 16 gods) used the row of the 7 planet gods as the first and then added a potbourri, containing Pluto, Cybele, Aesculapius, Pan (which never belonged to the 12 gods, but Cybele might have meant as Demeter) and Athena, Hephaistos, Juno, Bacchus, Neptun (which all - at least occasionally - occurred). Saturn-Kronos as planetary god was never an Olympian, so we would have 12 Olympians, if we count Cybele as Demeter. In the row we have 1 Saturn - 11 Pluto, 15 Pan - 16 Aesculapius "outside of Olymp", in the Michelino deck we have 1-12 as Olympians, 13-16 as outsiders ... so it's somehow rather clear, that Martiano knew the concept, but
it isn't clear for Evrart de Conty.

Manilius treats his 12 Olympians very logical, for him it are 6 pairs, which meet in the astrological cycle as oppositions.

1 Aries - Libra: Athena meets Hephaistos
2 Taurus - Scorpio: Venus meets Mars
3 Gemini - Sagittarius: Apollo meets Diana
4 Cancer - Capricorn: Mercury meets Vesta
5 Leo - Aquarius: Jupiter meets Juno
6 Virgo - Pisces: Ceres meets Neptun

Mercury is the young replacement of Pluto (Pluto-Death had nothing to do at a Olymp for immortal gods), but Mercury as Psychopompus had the function to guide mortal humans to the other world.

So we have actually all six children of Kronos-Rhea present as older six gods, and the sons are paired with the sisters (4-6). And the younger 6 gods (1-3) are also paired. Venus-Mars as lovers, Athena-Hephaistos for the case, that love doesn't work, and Apollo-Diana as brother and sister.

In the myth, where Apollo and Mercury meet for the first time, it's explicitly stated, that Mercury is the 12th Olympian and the last (an amusing Homeric Hymn, as far I remember).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#4
I would expect that the 12 listed by Manilius were known before that text was discovered. It is not in Ovid's Metamorphoses that I can find (I can't even find where he says there were 12), but it might have been in the commentaries that went with it. An old set of notes at https://books.google.com/books?id=Iy2ce ... id&f=false explains what Ovid means by the "noble gods" or "high gods" described in book one. It cites the Annales of Ennius, a Latin source that names all 12, including Vesta and Vulcan but not Bacchus/Liber.

In addition, Marziano would have had to know that Bacchus/Liber replaced Vesta, or at least had been elevated to join the 12. Was that said anywhere that Marziano could have known? I suppose so, but I don't know. That remains a question. It's probably in a Homeric hymn, but I don't know that Marziano would have known them.

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#5
mikeh wrote: It cites the Annales of Ennius, a Latin source that names all 12, including Vesta and Vulcan but not Bacchus/Liber.
The list by Ennius is quoted by Martianus Capella in De nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii:
(I.LIBER I)
42 Vulcanum vero Iovialem ipse Iuppiter poscit, licet numquam ille de sede corusca descenderet. tunc etiam ut inter alios potissimi rogarentur ipsius collegae Iovis, qui bis seni cum eodem Tonante numerantur, quosque distichum complectitur Ennianum:
Iuno Vesta Minerva Ceresque Diana Venus Mars
Mercurius Iovis Neptunus Vulcanus Apollo.


...The colleagues of Jupiter amount to twice six in number, including the Thunderer himself; whose names are contained in a pair of lines in Ennius:
Juno Vesta Minerva Ceres Diana Venus Mars Mercury Jupiter Neptune Vulcan Apollo
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#6
mikeh wrote: Offhand I can't see any relevance of any of what you've presented here for the issue of whether the tarot sequence at one point was influenced by the Petrarch poems' six titles, sequence, or content, nor of any direct relationship of Ovid or Ovid moralized to the tarot. Perhaps you have something in mind. If so, I am all ears. I have indeed wondered about the commentaries that went with the moralizations, whether there might be something of interest there to us. Even more, I've wondered about the commentaries on Petrarch and Boccaccio. If you know of any that are accessible, such as Filelfo's, I would also be all ears.
The point on Petrarch is you and Pratesi have come up with a mythical 16 trump tarot that is somehow an augmented Petrarch series...and you have pressed Marziano's 16 'trumps' into the argument (are we even talking about the problem of '16' if not for Marziano?). What I've demonstrated is there is no link between Petrarch and Marziano, not even in the Love/Cupid card (which is Barbarino). There just isn't any evidence for connecting Petrarch to a series of 16 images.

Filelfo wrote an extensive commentary on Petrarch's canzoniere at the request of Filippo, but despite the publishing boom on Filelfo (someone recently published the Sphortias and his letters), I don't think that has been touched. And nothing on the Triumphs as far as I know.

As for Manilius, Poggio (re)discovered the manuscript in 1417, which just precedes Marziano's deck proposed dating by a year, begging the question if that wasn't a factor that precipitated the project. Background info: https://books.google.com/books?id=gboS ... us&f=false

Re. "Bacchus/Liber replaced Vesta". Back to Pizan as a mediating influence of Ovid's theme, utilizing the genre for something more encyclopedic, e.g., adding Homer and the Tiburtine Sibyl, that Marziano might have been influenced by as it just preceded his own project (and of course the Visconti and French courts were rather close). All of the 16 gods are illustrated, save Vesta and Aeolos, usually directly interacting with their royal minions. There is even a Bacchus drinking along with his followers, in Harley MS 4431, f. 106r (granted that does not look like Bacchus, but often none of these gods take on a classical guise):
Pizan 106r - Bacchus.jpg
Pizan 106r - Bacchus.jpg (101.19 KiB) Viewed 2724 times
Marziano list - corresponding Pizan illustration (for some gods there are numerous vignettes that feature them – just giving one example here)
1. Jupiter: f. 99v, Jupiter presiding over his followers [this one is odd – he appears to be sprinkling [holy?] water from his heavenly place over his followers, although he is sometimes shown as a cleric, as on Florence's campanile, so that’s where that act would come from]
2. Juno – f. 118r, Juno, as the goddess of wealth, presiding over an assembly of men counting money.
3. Pallas - f. 103r, Minerva, holding a sword, and Pallas Athena, holding a book, presiding over their followers [they look like embodiments of Justice and Prudence]
4. Venus – f. 100r, Venus presiding over a group of men and women, who are presenting their hearts to her.
5. Apollo - 101r, Apollo, playing his harp, presiding over his followers
6. Neptune - 110v, Cassandra kneeling in prayer before an altar in a temple; Neptune intervening to save a ship caught in a storm at sea [Aeolus is causing that storm so he's at least implied here]
7. Diana - f.107r, Diana presiding over an assembly of women reading
8. Bacchus f. f. 106r, Bacchus and his followers drinking [see above]
9. Mercury - f. 102r, Mercury holding a flower as a symbol of eloquence, and inspiring the speech of the learned, engaged in a discourse
10. Mars - f. 101v, Mars presiding over a battle scene
11. Vesta - NA
12. Ceres f. 107v, Ceres sowing corn
13. Hercules f. 108v, Hercules slaying Cerberus
14. Aiolos -NA
15. Daphne – f. 134v, Daphne, half-woman and half- laurel tree with Apollo (already posted above)
16. Cupid - f. 51r, The God of Love presenting a letter to a messenger

You can peruse the manuscript here - just click in the upper right dialogue box and drag down to the folio you want to see (I gave many of the relevant folio numbers above, but the whole MS is fascinating and worth exploring): http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 4431_f001r

The main point here is that Marziano is 'eclectic' in his descriptions and may have drawn on multiple sources for graphic details the artist was to execute (probably even from Boccaccio's Genealogia deorum gentilium, in addition to Barberino, etc.). It does seem relevant that Pizan's work and the Manilius discovery appear right before Marziano's own project - both Pizan and the Manilius MS were major cultural events.

Huck,
Petrarch/Laura is merely a parallel phenomenon that does not even begin to explain the 16 subjects of Marziano. The Ovid genre does, particularly given its pictorial tradition, being augmented in Marziano's own time (e.g., Pizan again).

Phaeded

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#7
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote: It cites the Annales of Ennius, a Latin source that names all 12, including Vesta and Vulcan but not Bacchus/Liber.
The list by Ennius is quoted by Martianus Capella in De nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii:
(I.LIBER I)
42 Vulcanum vero Iovialem ipse Iuppiter poscit, licet numquam ille de sede corusca descenderet. tunc etiam ut inter alios potissimi rogarentur ipsius collegae Iovis, qui bis seni cum eodem Tonante numerantur, quosque distichum complectitur Ennianum:
Iuno Vesta Minerva Ceresque Diana Venus Mars
Mercurius Iovis Neptunus Vulcanus Apollo.


...The colleagues of Jupiter amount to twice six in number, including the Thunderer himself; whose names are contained in a pair of lines in Ennius:
Juno Vesta Minerva Ceres Diana Venus Mars Mercury Jupiter Neptune Vulcan Apollo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dii_Consentes

... confirms with some additions, what Steve already noted.
The Dii Consentes, also as Di or Dei Consentes (once Dii Complices), was a list of twelve major deities, six gods and six goddesses, in the pantheon of Ancient Rome. Their gilt statues stood in the Forum, later apparently in the Porticus Deorum Consentium.

The gods were listed by the poet Ennius in the late 3rd century BC in a paraphrase of an unknown Greek poet:

Juno, Vesta, Minerva, Ceres, Diana, Venus,
Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Neptune, Vulcan, Apollo


Livy arranges them in six male-female pairs: Jupiter-Juno, Neptune-Minerva, Mars-Venus, Apollo-Diana, Vulcan-Vesta and Mercury-Ceres. [in red the differences to Manilius] Three of the Dii Consentes formed the Capitoline Triad: Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva.

Background

The grouping of twelve deities has origins older than the Greek or Roman sources. The Greek grouping may have Anatolian, more precisely Lycian origins. A group of twelve Hittite gods is known both from cuneiform texts and from artistic representation. The Hittite Twelve are all male, with no individualizing features. They have a possible reflex in a Lycian group of twelve gods in the Roman Empire period. By 400 BC, a precinct dedicated to twelve gods existed at the marketplace in Xanthos in Lycia.[5]

Herodotus also refers to a group of twelve gods in Egypt, but this finds no confirmation in Egyptian sources. The Greek cult of the Twelve Olympians can be traced to 6th century BC Athens and probably has no precedent in the Mycenaean period. The altar to the Twelve Olympians at Athens is usually dated to the archonship of the younger Pesistratos, in 522/521 BC. By the 5th century BC there are well-attested cults of the Twelve Olympians in Olympia and at the Hieron on the Bosphoros.[5]

The references to twelve Etruscan deities are due to later Roman authors, writing long after the influence of the Greek pantheon had become dominant, and must be regarded with skepticism. Arnobius states that the Etruscans had a set of six male and six female deities which they called consentes and complices because they rose and set together, implying an astronomical significance, and that these twelve acted as councillors of Jupiter.[6] Scholarly evaluation of this account is dependent on the hypothesis that the Etruscans originally immigrated to Italy from Anatolia. In this case, the Etruscan Twelve might have been cognate to the Hittite Twelve. It is, however, just as possible that the Etruscan Twelve were simply an adaptation of the Greek Twelve just like the Roman Twelve.[6]
The wiki article ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians
In the ancient Greek religion and Greek mythology, the Twelve Olympians are the major deities of the Greek pantheon, commonly considered to be Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes, and either Hestia or Dionysus.[1] Hades and Persephone were sometimes included as part of the twelve Olympians (primarily due to the influence of the Eleusinian Mysteries), although in general Hades was excluded, because he resided permanently in the underworld and never visited Olympus.

..

The concept of the "Twelve Gods" is older than any extant Greek or Roman source.[5] The gods meet in council in the Homeric epics, but the first ancient reference to religious ceremonies for the Olympians collectively is found in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes. The Greek cult of the Twelve Olympians can be traced to 6th-century BC Athens and probably has no precedent in the Mycenaean period. The Altar of the Twelve Gods at Athens is usually dated to the archonship of the younger Pesistratos, in 522/521 BC.

In ancient Greek religion, the "Olympian Gods" and the "Cults of Twelve Gods" were often relatively distinct concepts.[6]

Membership
While the number was fixed at twelve,[7] there was considerable variation as to which deities were included.[8] However, the twelve as most commonly portrayed in art and poetry were Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes and either Hestia, or Dionysus.

Hades, known in the Eleusinian tradition as Pluto, was not usually included among the Olympians because his realm was the underworld. Plato connected the Twelve Olympians with the twelve months, and implies that he considered Pluto one of the twelve in proposing that the final month be devoted to him and the spirits of the dead.[9][10] In Phaedrus, Plato seems to exclude Hestia from the rank of "the twelve great gods".[11]

At Olympia there were six altars dedicated to six pairs of gods: Zeus and Poseidon, Hera and Athena, Hermes and Apollo, the Charites and Dionysus, Artemis and Alpheus, and Cronus and Rhea.[12] The historian Herodotus states that Heracles was included as one of the Twelve by some.[13] At Kos, Heracles and Dionysus are added to the Twelve, and Ares and Hephaestus are not.[14] For Pindar,[15] the Bibliotheca, and Herodorus of Heraclea, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult.[4] Lucian (2nd century AD) includes Heracles and Asclepius as members of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them.

Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone are other important gods and goddesses who are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Eros is often depicted alongside the other twelve, especially his mother Aphrodite, but not usually counted in their number.

The Roman poet Ennius gives the Roman equivalents (the Dii Consentes) as six male-female complements,[10] preserving the place of Vesta (Greek Hestia), who played a crucial role in Roman religion as a state goddess maintained by the Vestals.
Archeologists believe, that they have found the place of the altar of the younger Peisistratos ...
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot ... 5sH13tz.97

Image


"An artist’s reconstruction of the Altar of the Twelve Gods in the north-west corner of the Athenian Agora [Credit: University of Minnesota]"

The wiki article gives a picture:

Image

Large at ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Ol ... s_2340.jpg

commented with ..
Fragment of a Hellenistic relief (1st century BC – 1st century AD) depicting the Twelve Olympians carrying their attributes in procession; from left to right, Hestia (scepter), Hermes (winged cap and staff), Aphrodite (veiled), Ares (helmet and spear), Demeter (scepter and wheat sheaf), Hephaestus (staff), Hera (scepter), Poseidon (trident), Athena (owl and helmet), Zeus (thunderbolt and staff), Artemis (bow and quiver), Apollo (lyre), from the Walters Art Museum.
Partly the composition of Manilius is confirmed, partly 3 pairs have changed their composition (those in red). But it are 6 pairs with different gender and female figures and male figures are sorted fm-fm-fm-fm-fm-fm in the row.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#8
Phaeded wrote: The point on Petrarch is you and Pratesi have come up with a mythical 16 trump tarot that is somehow an augmented Petrarch series...and you have pressed Marziano's 16 'trumps' into the argument (are we even talking about the problem of '16' if not for Marziano?). What I've demonstrated is there is no link between Petrarch and Marziano, not even in the Love/Cupid card (which is Barbarino). There just isn't any evidence for connecting Petrarch to a series of 16 images.
Franco Pratesi once (1989) came up with with better information to the Michelino deck, and this had 16 trumps.

The "hypothetical" 16 trumps of the CY appeared in the development of the 5x14-theory (also 1989), cause there were reasons seen, that the PMB first started as a version with 5x14 cards. Considering the fact, that the CY was made earlier than PMB and had 16 cards in their normal suits, the idea developed, that the CY might have been a 5x16 deck (also 1989).

Both were independent developments, Pratesi's article wasn't known and naturally Pratesi didn't know the 5x14-theory from our side. Likely he did know the article of John Berry, who had some own ideas about a 5x14-structure (they appear in a book review about Bob O'Neill's book "Tarot Symbolism".
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1073&p=16421&hilit=berry#p16427

The Michelino deck was only known by a few lines of text in the Kaplan Encyclopedia II, p. 138, in a short biography of Michelino da Besozzo. For Kaplan there were 16 cards and these were gods, which he listed in a 4x4-table. Kaplan speculated, that these should have been done before 1445. Kaplan didn't see a context to the Tarot cards.

Tom Tadfor Little had a webpage "Tarothermit". He reported contents of the article of Franco Pratesi, his article was relative short.
http://www.trionfi.com/001/tarot/biogra ... ittle.html
The article is gone, still in the archives available.
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/200204 ... rziano.htm
I've placed it here ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1131&p=18306#p18306
... to have it better reachable.

This article led to a personal contact between Pratesi and Trionfi.com in 2002. We got copies of the relevant published texts. This had the consequence http://trionfi.com/0/b/
Ross Caldwell translated the relevant texts in 2004.

The relevant text (2003) to the hypothetical 16 trumps of Cary-Yale was this one:
http://trionfi.com/0/c/35/
Then it was speculated, that the 6 Petrarca figures might have played a role.

Actually it didn't play a big role in the discussions till 2007, when the hypothesis arrived, that also the Charles VI Tarot possibly had 16 trumps.

Then we had actually 3 Trionfi notes with possibly "16 trumps" and we had also only 3 notes with possibly 14 trumps.

16 trumps: Michelino deck (sure)
16 trumps: Cary-Yale (suspicion)
16 trumps: Charles VI (suspicion)

14 trumps: 14 pictures for Bianca Maria (1441 - suspicion)
14 trumps: PMB (in my opinion deadly sure)
14 trumps: 70 cards in Ferrara (1457 - rather sure)

With this the hypothesis of the Chess influence became rather interesting.
Phaeded wrote:
As for Manilius, Poggio (re)discovered the manuscript in 1417, which just precedes Marziano's deck proposed dating by a year, begging the question if that wasn't a factor that precipitated the project. Background info: https://books.google.com/books?id=gboS ... us&f=false
You overlook the fact, that the papal group (returning from Constance in 1418 and crossing the Alps; including Poggio) made their first station in Milan, where they had some stay (right after the execution of Beatrice de Tenda, 13th of September). Filippo Maria had it very quickly right under his nose. As he had a lot of astrologers at his court, it shouldn't be suspected that he ignored the opportunity.

http://www.storiadimilano.it/cron/dal1401al1425.htm
1418 13 settembre
Beatrice di Tenda viene decapitata nel castello di Binasco. Filippo Maria Visconti presenta all'imperatore Sigismondo la richiesta di poter legittimare come suo successore nel Ducato un figlio naturale.

1418 ottobre
Per concessione di Martino V, gli Osservanti di S. Angelo ottengono l'uso di un giardino vicino a S. Maria della Scala dove c'erano ancora rovine delle case dei Torriani. Poiché in quell'area non si poteva costruire, i frati da principio lo usano come luogo aperto e centrale dove radunare i fedeli per le loro predicazioni. In seguito (dal 1451) iniziano una serie di costruzioni (da principio abusive) che porteranno alla chiesa di S. Maria del Giardino.

1418 16 ottobre
Martino V consacra l'altare maggiore del Duomo. Il papa era giunto a Pavia il 5 ottobre e il 12 era entrato in Milano. Il 14 ottobre viene abbattuta l'abside di S. Maria Maggiore e viene predisposto il nuovo altare. Per ricordo, Iacopino da Tradate eseguirà nel 1424 la statua del papa oggi al museo del Duomo.
Added: Thanks for hint on the Epître d'Othéa. I found another version at ...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... PISAN.zoom

The pictures seem to be rather similar.

French edition, Mercury:

Image


In the British library, Mercury:

Image


Some notes "on the run" ... with the help of a German description ...
http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... A%2031.pdf

The seven planets run according the days of the week.

Jupiter ... Thursday
Venus ... Friday
Saturn ... Saturday
Sun ... Sunday
Moon ... Monday
Mars ... Tuesday

After this follow "3 theological virtues", which are presented by Minerva, Pallas and Penthisilea.

Then follow 7 sins of death:

Narcissus
Athamas and Ino (rage/ire)
Aglauros and Herce (enuie)
Polyphem and Odysseus (paresce)
Latona and the Lykyan farmers (auarice),
Bacchus (gloutonnie)
Pygmalion (luxure)

12 articles of the Credo, presented with Greek figures (likely 12 pictures)

10 Laws
---------
1 Belerophon
2 Memnon
3 Laomedon
4 Pyramus and Thisbe
5 Aesculap and Circe
6 Achille and Polyxena
7 Busiris
8 Hero and Leander
9 Helena
10 Aurora

After this a chaos with "practical virtues", also with mythological figures.

Then - short - something about Augustus.

... this all based on a manuscript in Erlangen -Nürnberg, Ms. 2361 and the reporting author Helga Lengenfelder.

I looked for pictures of this edition and they look rather different in style:

Image


This is Mercury (all planets ride on horses, so all planets are different) ...

Image


This text also knows a web-edition ...
http://digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/ ... ePid2=true#

There are lots of editions: Another mercury ...

Image

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k7 ... .item.zoom

****************

I found this description of Harley MS 4431
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDispla ... ey_MS_4431
Harley MS 4431, ff 1r-177v
Christine de Pizan, Collected works ('The Book of the Queen'), vol. 1
The first volume of Works by Christine de Pizan, also known as 'The Book of the Queen', including:1. List of contents, Table des dictiez en general (ff. 2r-2v).2. Dedication to the queen Isabel of Bavaria, Prologue adreçant à la royne (ff. 3r-3v).3. Cent balades (ff. 4r-21r);4. Virelais (ff. 21v-24r).5. Balades de plusieurs façons (ff. 24r-25r).6. Lay de vers léonimes (ff. 25r-27r). 7. Un Autre Lay (ff. 27r-28v).8. Rondelz (ff. 28v-34r);9. Jeux à Vendre (ff. 34v-37v);10. Autres Balades (Plusieurs balades de divers propos) (ff. 37r-48r);11. Une Complainte Amoureuse (ff. 48r-49v);12. Encore Aultres Balades (ff. 49v-51r);13. Epistre au Dieu d'Amours (ff. 51r-56v);14. Une Autre Complainte Amoureuse (ff. 56v-58r);15. Le livre du débat des deux amans (ff. 58v-71r);16. Le Livre des trois jugements (ff. 71v-81r);17. Livre de Poissy (ff. 81r-94r);18. L'Épître Othéa (ff. 95r-141v);19. Livre du duc des vrais amants (ff. 143r-177v).Decoration:Selected texts and their divisions begin with one-column miniatures, with the exception of the first image which is two-column wide. Their subjects are:f. 3r, Christine de Pizan presenting her book to queen Isabeau of Bavaria (Prologue). f. 4r, Christine de Pizan in her study (Cent balades).f. 48r, A man with a letter in his hand kneeling before a lady (Une Complainte Amoureuse).f. 51r, The God of Love presenting a letter to a messenger (Epistre au Dieu d'Amours).f. 56v, A woman (Christine?) sitting on a red velvet bed and addressing a man kneeling before her with a letter in his hand (Une Autre Complainte Amoureuse). f. 58v, A woman (Christine?) addressing the king of France and pointing at two men behind her (Le livre du débat des deux amans).f. 71v, A woman (Christine?) presenting three pairs of lovers to Jean de Werchin, Seneschal of Hainault (Le Livre des trois jugements).f. 81r, Ladies and gentlemen riding together (Livre de Poissy).

Start
L'Épître Othéa:
f. 95r, Christine de Pizan presenting her book to Louis of Orleans.f. 95v, The goddess Othea presenting her epistle to Hector of Troy.f. 96v, Temperance adjusting a clock.f. 97r, Hercules battling against two lions.f. 98r, Naked Christians being brought before king Minos for judgement.f. 98v, Andromeda being rescued from a monster by Perseus, riding on Pegasus.f. 99v, Jupiter presiding over his followers.f. 100r, Venus presiding over a group of men and women, who are presenting their hearts to her.f. 100v, Saturn, holding a sickle, presiding over a group of men.f. 101r, Apollo, playing his harp, presiding over his followers; and Phoebe with a bow and arrow, presiding over her followers.f. 101v, Mars presiding over a battle scene.f. 102r, Mercury holding a flower as a symbol of eloquence, and inspiring the speech of the learned, engaged in a discourse below.f. 102v, Minerva presenting armour to her followers.f. 103r, Minerva, holding a sword, and Pallas Athena, holding a book, presiding over their followers.f. 103v, Queen Penthesilea with and her amy of Amazons riding through the forest to aid the Trojan army.f. 104r, Narcissus gazing at his own reflection; The fury Tesiphone inducing Athamus to kill his wife Ino and their children.f. 104v, Aglauros refusing Mercury, disguised as a traveller, admittance to her sister Herse.f. 105r, Ulysses blinding the Cyclop Polyphemus.f. 105v, The goddess Latona turning peasants into frogs after they prevented her from drinking from a stream.f. 106r, Bacchus and his followers drinking.f. 106v, Pygmalion kneeling before Venus.f. 107r, Diana presiding over an assembly of women reading.f. 107v, Ceres sowing corn; and Isis grafting trees.f. 108r, Midas (with donkey's ears) judging the contest between Pan playing pipe and Apollo playing his lyre.f. 108v, Hercules slaying Cerberus, and Theseus and Pirithous battling demonsf. 109r, Construction of Thebes and Cadmus killing the dragon at Ares's spring; A scriptorium at work under the direction of Io.f. 109v, Mercury playing pipes to put a many-eyed Argus to sleep, in order to steal Io, who has been transformed into a cow.f. 110r, Pyrrhus in battle with the Trojans, avenging the death of Achille.f. 110v, Cassandra kneeling in prayer before an altar in a temple; Neptune intervening to save a ship caught in a storm at sea.f. 111r, Atropos threatening a group of people, including a pope, with her arrows of death.f. 111v, Bellorophon and his stepmother, the queen, with threatening lions above.f. 112r, King Memnon, a cousin of Hector, being called to arms.f. 112v, King Laomedon of Troy confronting the Hercules, Jason, and the Argonauts; Thisbe committing suicide after finding Pyramus dead.f. 113v, The physician Aesculapius making a diagnosis, with Circe spearing frogs in a stream below.f. 114r, Paris killing Achilles as he kneels in a temple and Hecuba watching; and King Busiris offering the heads of his victims to the gods, on an altar in the temple.f. 114v, Hero leaping from the battlements of a castle to drown with her lover Leander.f. 115r, Greek messengers demanding the return of Helen from King Priam.f. 115v, Aurora bringing the dawn, with a peasant, fastening his trousers and entering a hen house.f. 116r, Queen Pasiphae embracing the bull.f. 116v, Thydeus and Polinices in combat beneath the chamber of the sleeping King Adrastus of Argos.f. 117r, Cupid and a young knight.f. 117v, Apollo shooting arrows at Corinus, after the white raven has reported her unfaithfulness.f. 118r, Juno, as the goddess of wealth, presiding over an assembly of men counting money.f. 118v, The army of King Adrastus riding to destroy Thebes, against the advice of Amphiarus; and Saturn, as a model of discretion, counseling silence to his followers.f. 119r, Two birds, a black crow and a white raven, resting in trees.f. 119v, Apollo killing Ganymede by piercing his eye.f. 120r, Jason battling the dragon which guards the golden ram on Colchis.f. 120v, Perseus battling the Gorgon.f. 121r, Vulcan chaining his wife Venus and Mars after finding them in bed together.f. 121v, The head of King Cyrus being brought before Thamyris, Queen of the Amazons.f. 122r, Medea presenting a casket to a kneeling Jason; and Galatea and Acis being surprised by Galatea's jealous suitor, Polyphemus.f. 122v, Guests at the banquet to celebrate the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.f. 123r, Greek soldiers killing king Laomedon.f. 123v, Juno, disguised as an old woman, giving poor advice to the young Semele, beloved of Jupiter.f. 124r, Diana and maidens hunting a stag; and Arachne at her loom with Pallas.f. 124v, Adonis being killed by a wild boar.f. 125r, The Trojan army inspecting the empty Greek ships as Telamon's army enters the undefended city of Troy.f. 125v, Orpheus charming wild animals by playing his lyre; and The Judgement of Paris.f. 126r, Actaeon surprising Diana at her bath and being turned into a stag as punishment.f. 126v, Orpheus looking back as he leads Eurydice from Hell.f. 127v, Ulysses discovering Achilles, who is hiding among the daughters of Lycomedes on Scyros (Ulysses casts weapons before the women, which Achilles snatches up, betraying his identity).f. 128r, Hippomenes racing against Atalante, and picking up one of the golden apples thrown by her.f. 128v, The Judgement of Paris, between Athena, Juno and Venus.f. 129r, The Wheel of Fortune; and Paris embracing Helen.f. 129v, Cephalus accidentally killing his wife Procris in a forest while hunting.f. 130r, Helenus, brother of Hector, advising Paris in an assembly.f. 130v, Morpheus bringing sleep to a man in a bed.f. 131r, King Ceyx taking leave of his wife Alcyone as he prepares to set sail in a boat.f. 131v, Troilus advising king Priam in council about the abduction of Helen.f. 132r, Calchas being sent to Delphi by Priam.f. 132v, Hermaphroditus and the nymph Salmacis bathing in a lake.f. 133r, Ulysses playing chess in his tent during the Trojan War.f. 133v, Troilus and Briseis with Cupid.f. 134r, Hector killing Patroclus in battle; and Echo and Narcissus.f. 134v, Daphne, half-woman and half- laurel tree with Apollo.f. 135r, Hector bidding farewell to his wife Andromache and their son Astyanax before going off to war.f. 135v, King Ninus besieging the city of Babylon.f. 136r, Hector bidding farewell to Priam, who implores him not to fight.f. 136v, Achilles killing Hector in battle.f. 137r, Achilles killing Polybetes in battle, as Polybetes tries to retrieve Hector's armour.f. 137v, Funeral of Hector.f. 138r, Ajax being killed by an enemy arrow during a battle.f. 138v, Antenor betraying the city of Troy to the Greeks.f. 139r, The gates of Troy being enlarged to permit the entrance of the Trojan horse.f. 139v, The Greek army entering Troy and destroying the city.f. 140r, The sorceress Circe changing Ulysses and his companions into swine.f. 140v, Ino ordering the sowing of boiled corn.f. 141r, The Tiburtine Sybil revealing to Caesar Augustus a vision of the Virgin and Child.
Finish ???
Livre du duc des vrais amants:f. 143r, The Duke of True Love and his lady.f. 144r, The Duke of True Love hunting with dogs and mounted companions.f. 145r, The Duke of True Love and his companions entertaining ladies in a garden.f. 150r, Ladies watching knights jousting.f. 153r, A lady seated in a litter borne by two white horses, in the centre, with male attendants, three mounted, one on foot.f. 154v, The Lover in bed complaining to his companion.


Harley MS 4431, ff 178r-274r
Christine de Pizan, Collected works ('The Book of the Queen'), vol. 2
The second volume of works by Christine de Pizan, also knowns as 'The Book of the Queen', including:1. Le Livre du chemin de long estude (ff. 178r-219v);2. Dit de la pastoure (ff. 221r-236v);3. Épîtres sur le Roman de la rose (ff. 237r-254r);4. Epistre à Eustace Morel (ff. 255v-257r);5. Une Oroison de la Vie et Passion de Nostre Seigneur (ff. 257v-259v);6. Proverbes Moraulx (ff. 259v-261v);7. Enseignemens que Cristine donne à son Filz (Les Enseignemens Moraux) (ff. 261v-265r);8. Une Oroison Nostre Dame (ff. 265r-266v);9. Quinze Joyes Nostre Dame Rimées (ff. 267r-267v);10. Livre de Prudence (ff. 268r-287v);11. La Cité des dames (ff. 288v-374r);12. Cent Balades d'Amant et de Dame (ff. 376r-398r).Decoration:Selected texts and their divisions begin with one-column miniatures, with the exception of the image on f. 290r which is two-column wide. Their subjects are:Livre du chemin de long estude:f. 178r, Christine de Pizan presenting her book to Charles VI, seated on the left, with courtiers.f. 180v, A woman lying in a bed, with another woman alongside.f. 183r, Pegasus flying over the Nine Muses, in the Castalian fountain on Mount Parnassus, while Christine and the Sibyl look on.f. 188r, Christine and the Sibyl pointing at a ladder to heavens.f. 189v, Christine and the Sibyl standing in a sphere of the cosmos, with the moon, sun and stars surrounding them.f. 192v, Christine's vision in heavens.f. 196v, The pleading at the court of Reason.f. 218v, The pleading at the court of the Queen Reason.f. 221r, A shepherd with his dog and flock (Dit de la pastoure).f. 257r, Christ as the Man of Sorrows (Une Oroison de la Vie et Passion de Nostre Seigneur).f. 259v, Woman reading (Proverbes Moraulx).f. 261v, Christine de Pizan giving instructions to her son (Enseignemens que Cristine donne à son Filz).f. 265r, A lady (Christine?) praying before the Virgin and Child (Une Oroison Nostre Dame).La Cité des dames:f. 290r, Christine de Pizan before the personifications of Rectitude, Reason, and Justice in her study, with other ladies building the 'Cité des dames'.f. 323r, The queen and her ladies entering the 'Cité des Dames'.
For those, who are interested: Helga Lengenfelder ...
already given: http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... A%2031.pdf
... has since page 71 in her pdf a content page of the Epitre ... mostly in French.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#9
Huck wrote:You overlook the fact, that the papal group (returning from Constance in 1418 and crossing the Alps; including Poggio) made their first station in Milan, where they had some stay (right after the execution of Beatrice de Tenda, 13th of September). Filippo Maria had it very quickly right under his nose. As he had a lot of astrologers at his court, it shouldn't be suspected that he ignored the opportunity.
Thanks for that tidbit, which almost settles it then - that the rediscovery of Manilius, passing through Milan at the exact time Marziano makes his deck points to that as the impetus for either Filippo or Marziano to conceive of a project related to the classical gods. That Ovid, particularly as it existed in many examples as a pictorial program, would be pressed into service for this project is expected at that time.
Huck wrote: The "hypothetical" 16 trumps of the CY appeared in the development of the 5x14-theory (also 1989), cause there were reasons seen, that the PMB first started as a version with 5x14 cards. Considering the fact, that the CY was made earlier than PMB and had 16 cards in their normal suits, the idea developed, that the CY might have been a 5x16 deck (also 1989).
So you have three "16s":
1. Marziano - already ruled out as unrelated to the tarot trumps and presumably unknown in Florence.
2. The PMB trumps in the hand of one artist - the proposal that part of the PMB is a complete deck, with trumps that match no other known complete tarot deck, is ludicrous. This is a beyond a 'fringe' idea - no one has seriously proposed it in a publication.
3. The CY suits have 16 cards.

Only #3 merits any further discussion. Yet by reducing the significance of the CY suits to just the number 16, the other attributes of these cards, as well as their relationship to the surviving trumps, gets flushed down the toilet. You haven't even bothered to explain WHY there are 16 card suits (or more precisely, why 6 instead of 4 court cards), and instead have just jumped to the theory of an equivalent number for the trumps.

To patiently restate that which you continue to step around: The much more significant aspect unique to the CY's suit's court cards is that they are decorated with the arms of two families, evenly split between the two suits. The 3 men for 3 women in each of the four sets of court cards plays on the matrimonial event, allowing for courting pairs. Although I prefer to call the CY a 'condotte' deck, it clearly also represents a wedding between Sforza and Bianca Visconti. Although the CY Love card necessarily shows the couple under the auspices of Ducal Milan, in Republican Florence - which did not have royal/ducal weddings - the CY version of the Love card is unthinkable, and thus 3 men and 3 women (as in the CVI), under love - perfectly paralleling the CY court cards and explaining why there are 6 people.

From my 'Literary Source-Dante' post:
The CVI lover’s card of three couples is closely related to the theme of couples stepping lively in Scheggia’s Admiari cassone [spalliere, actually] painting: http://www.kimbellart.org/artandlove/im ... l_crop.jpg
The museum in which it is housed thusly describes it: “Their slow steps may be those of a wedding dance known as the chiarenzana to music played by the pifferi, a Florentine civic ensemble.” Baxandall’s fundamental work, Painting and Experience in 15th century Italy (1972), notes the link between the groupings of people in paintings and dance but also comments on the Bassa danza, “the slow pacing dance that became popular in Italy during the first half of the century” (77). A specific dance cannot be securely identified in either the cassone or card, but rather it is some version of the Bassa danza. The earliest known dances in treatises that appeared in the 1440s had names like ‘Cupido’ and ‘Jealousy’, the latter featuring three men and three women (78), just as in our CVI card. Just as suggestively as ‘Cupido’, Lorenzo Magnifico even wrote a Basssa danza called ‘Venus.’ There is little doubt what the Florentine CVI lovers card represents: “love” drawn to and resulting from the ritual of the dance. Most tellingly, Baldini’s engraved series of planets features a dancing couple below Eros: http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t212 ... nusFin.jpg.
Here is Eros/Cupid actually joining the dance (from La carole au Dieu Amour - Roman de la Rose, détail - vers 1420-1430 -Osterreichische Nationalbibliothek), while a minion holds his bow and arrows:
Image


The CY has simply taken the dancing couples from the Florentine ur-tarot Love card - already an established pictorial genre per the image above - and removed them to the court cards, allowing the Love trump to now depict a royal wedding. It is completely unnecessary to insist on 16 trumps to match the 16 card suits, as the symbolic connection is between dancing couples and the couples of the court cards (the 10 pips have no relation to any of the trumps, but love and the court figures is the very subject of such works as Romance of the Rose, not to mention Pizan's illustrated manuscript ending with this sequence: "143r, The Duke of True Love and his lady.f. 144r, The Duke of True Love hunting with dogs and mounted companions.f. 145r, The Duke of True Love and his companions entertaining ladies in a garden.f. 150r, Ladies watching knights jousting.f. 153r, A lady seated in a litter borne by two white horses, in the centre, with male attendants, three mounted, one on foot.f. 154v, The Lover in bed complaining to his companion.").

Three couples even appear Pizan's work - f. 71v, A woman [Christine?] presenting three pairs of lovers to Jean de Werchin, Seneschal of Hainault - somewhat mimicking a f. v. 128 Judgement of Paris, which is properly Cupid's work. The 3 goddesses of the Judgement of Paris likely influenced the predisposition towards 3 couples, such as in the 'jealousy' bassa dance noted above as well; 3 couples are frequently depicted, from the early 15th through the early 16th centuries (see bottom 2 images below):
Image

Image

Image

Image


The CY - alone of the Milanese decks - has 3 females and 3 males in its court because that deck was uniquely tied to a wedding event, at which there would be dancing. The PMB, for the same Visconti-Sforza, does not bother to retain the 6 court figures (for the simple reason it is no longer their wedding being celebrated), nor do they bother to match the number of the PMB trumps to the number of cards in the PMB suits...so why would they have bothered in the earlier CY deck?

Phaeded

Re: Marziano deck in the context of the moralizing Ovid genr

#10
Well, three pairs appear also in the theater play of Alberti, the Philodoxus. I don't mind this idea. Thanks for your research about the dances.

I've the idea, that, if 5x14 decks existed with involvement of a predefined trump suit, also decks with 5x12, 5x13, 5x15, 5x16 structure might have existed.
I designed that with "16 CY (suspicion)" in my post, to avoid, that this is understood as a strict statement, like "The Cary-Yale had 16 trumps" ... :-).. you are often less careful, when you state an opinion.

I'm not sure, if I understand this correctly:
So you have three "16s":
1. Marziano - already ruled out as unrelated to the tarot trumps and presumably unknown in Florence.
2. The PMB trumps in the hand of one artist - the proposal that part of the PMB is a complete deck, with trumps that match no other known complete tarot deck, is ludicrous. This is a beyond a 'fringe' idea - no one has seriously proposed it in a publication.
3. The CY suits have 16 cards.
What precisely do you want to state with Nr. 2?
Huck
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