Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#11
Mary Greer wrote:Here's some more on Tamponelli:

http://books.google.com/books?id=BVtcAA ... Tamponelli

from an 1864 French book. Can anyone translate this section?
hi Mary,
Seems to be less relevant and informative (Tamponelli is just noted) than the given webpage ..
http://cafe-turc.pagespro-orange.fr/ani ... selda.html
.. which could be used for google-translation

The web page notes the name Charles Nisard and a text, which he (or his book partner Marie Leonhard ?) wrote and published 1854. This text should be here:
http://books.google.de/books?id=6elRAAA ... A9&f=false

*****************

The web page notes a further name: Collin de Plancy, which should be ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collin_de_Plancy
... a person with the complex name Jacques Albin Simon Collin de Plancy (elsewhere I read, tha Jacques Albin Simon was a pseudonym.

For the year 1826 (given at the webpage) I found this work ...

Les trente-cinq contes d'un perroquet: contes Persans
Clotilde-Marie Collin de Plancy
Mongie, 1826 - 256 pages
http://books.google.de/books?id=O5s1NQA ... edir_esc=y
This puzzles me ... "trente-cinq" = "35" appeared in other coffee reading contexts and the author's name indicates a woman, not a man. But it is the same producer "Mongie", given by the webpage as "Librairie Universelle de P. Mongie Ainé - Paris"
"Perroquet" are birds ...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perroquet
but it has also other meanings
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perroquet_%28homonymie%29

On this list by worldcat I found the name "Collin de Plancy" connected to 101 editions for the years 1825-27 alone !!!!
http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3AC ... umber_link
Not really imaginable, that he wrote these all by his own hands ... :-) ... somehow he was just only the printer or publisher in many cases, I would assume.
I find a work:

L'Art de tirer les cartes et les tarots, ou Cartomancie française, égyptienne, italienne et allemande... par Aldegonde Pérenna,... publié par M. Collin de Plancy,...
by Jacques-Albin-Simon Collin de Plancy
Language: French
Publisher: Paris : P. Mongie aîné, 1826.

... and I look at DDD, Wicked pack of cards, and yes, they have it: p. 144-147, with a biography of Collin and also of his female cousin (in real life: Gabrielle de Paban), who wrote the Tarot book.

I find again:
Les trente-cinq contes d'un perroquet, ouvrage pub. à Calcutta, en persan et en anglais;
by Ḳādirī Muḥammad Khudāvand; Clotilde Marie Collin de Plancy
Language: French
Publisher: Paris, P. Mongie, ainé, 1826.

... published in Persian and English language. This seems to be a fairy tale story collection with 35 stories, told by a "Perroquet" ...

I find:
http://books.google.de/books/about/%E1% ... edir_esc=y
... related to the same original 35-tales-"Papageienbuch", a Codex housed in Munich.

So this likely has nothing to do with the coffee reading system (?), though it would likely make up some good coffee reading stories: Here's something on English about it. Well, Persia had some importance in th distribution of coffee during 16th century.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main ... %26ct%3D63

Then I find:
Dictionnaire infernal ou, bibliotheque universelle, sur les etres, les personnages, les livres, les faits et les choses qui tiennent aux apparitions, a la magie, au commerce de l'enfer, aux divinations, aux sciences secretes, ... 2e ed. ent. refondue.
Author: J -A -S Collin de Plancy
Publisher: Paris P Mongie Aine 1825-1826.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_Infernal

This should contain the coffee reading passage.

I get here the editions of 1844 and 1863 and not the versions of 1826.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/Search?idArk=&n=1 ... eFin=&tri=

I get here a description of the version of 1826:
http://www.bmlisieux.com/galeries/dictinf/dictinf.htm
I find a "AUX DIVINATIONS" in the description, but no note about Cartomancy or Coffee reading.

In the version 1844 I find this article:

Image


Image


Image


Image


***************

The next name noted is L'Abbe Migne
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Paul_Migne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Paul_Migne

It should be this:
Encyclopédie théologique, ou série de dictionnaires... by Jacques Paul MIGNE
Encyclopédie théologique, ou série de dictionnaires sur toutes les parties de la science religieuse. ... Publiée par M. l'Abbé Migne.
by Jacques Paul MIGNE

Publisher: Paris, 1844-49.

I give up on searching this passage, the website has a curious way to address their references. Migne had written a lot dictionaries.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#12
Okay - so here's the 1745 book on fortune telling with coffee grounds. Can anyone summarize what is going on here and if any meanings for the images are given - or is it just a diatribe against fortune-telling or fortune-telling and coffee house visiting? If the latter - it could be a hint that revolution was fomented in the coffee-houses and/or through the fortune-tellers.

http://books.google.de/books?id=ebEUAAA ... %C3%A4lgen

There's an example of such politics in Prague during WWII where a Madame de Thebes (a common fortune-teller's title) kept foreseeing the downfall of Hitler and the Nazis. Finally, the Gestapo took her away and killed her for it. She is now a hero of the war and her house is a sightseeing attraction.

Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#13
Mary Greer wrote:Okay - so here's the 1745 book on fortune telling with coffee grounds. Can anyone summarize what is going on here and if any meanings for the images are given - or is it just a diatribe against fortune-telling or fortune-telling and coffee house visiting? If the latter - it could be a hint that revolution was fomented in the coffee-houses and/or through the fortune-tellers.

http://books.google.de/books?id=ebEUAAA ... %C3%A4lgen

There's an example of such politics in Prague during WWII where a Madame de Thebes (a common fortune-teller's title) kept foreseeing the downfall of Hitler and the Nazis. Finally, the Gestapo took her away and killed her for it. She is now a hero of the war and her house is a sightseeing attraction.
The original book is from 1742 ... it's a "boring" opposing text and gives no content of the use of the divination technique. But it has 31pages and makes clear, that Coffee reading should exist a few years in Germany. Generally the most, which is written about Cartomancy and coffee reading is negative and this is not unusual.

In the start article of this thread I've pointed to the text of 1763, which contains not only the first note about Cartomancy, but also a system with 35 figures for coffee interpretation. I've analyzed the system there andtranslated the key expressions. The same system (or at least rather similar) is used 1769 by ...

http://books.google.de/books?id=i8g6AAA ... &q&f=false
Abhandlung der Physiognomie, Metoposcopie und Chiromantie
Christian A. Peuschel
1769 - 401 pages

Both (1763 and 1769) have 35 figures, and 35 (the 36th field isn't really used) figures has somehow also the Spiel der Hoffnung (1799), which later becomes Petit Lenormand 1846 with 36 figures and 35 figures has Pratesi's Cartomancer in Bologna and 35 numbered cards has the Minchiate, which was played in Florence, where "Tamponelli invented coffee reading".
This is the interesting observation. There seems to have been a tradition, which preferred a system with 35 elements and it appears in coffee reading and cartomancy.
A later coffee reading system, that I found for the period c. 1800 in Nürnberg (where the Spiel der Hoffnung developed), had 80-90 figures.

************
I made some other findings:
***********

Tamponelli in Sweden
Den underbara drömtydaren eller ett tusende ett hundrade femtio olika drömmars uttydning, hemtad från åtskillige spåmän och spåqwinnor såsom den ryktbare italienaren Thomas Tamponelli, franske spåmannen Eteilla, samt wår swenska, under konung Gustaf III:s tid så ryktbara spåqwinna Mamsell Arfwidsson

Google Translation:
The wonderful drömtydaren or one thousand one hundred fifty different dream interpretation, hemtad from åtskillige soothsayers and spåqwinnor such as the renowned Italian Thomas Tamponelli, French soothsayer Eteilla and war Swenska, under King Gustav III's reign so illustrious spåqwinna Mamsell Arfwidsson
************

Tamponelli in Netherlands

Image

http://books.google.de/books?id=_BOgAAA ... edir_esc=y
http://books.google.de/books/about/Den_ ... edir_esc=y

According this Tamponelli died c. 1750 (?)

********************************

Tamponelli again in France, now 1842 and in a book of Aldegonde Perenna, the cousin of Collin de Planche

QAAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=tamponelli+firenze&source=bl&ots=aiUvAOzaZo&sig=cu4fG2LeGuoerG2_1157B6wD1nw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wD4sUPfSA8zAswaZ1oGACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tamponelli firenze&f=false
L'art de dire la bonne aventure dans la main, avec les horoscopes, ou moyen de connaître sa destinée par les constellations de la naissance; l'art de tirer les cartes l'explication des visions & des songes; des anecdotes y relatives; l'art de s'enrichir de ses rêves etc...
G. Paban, Aldegonde Perenna
Locard-Davi, 1842

The article has about 20 pages. According this Tamponelli was 100 years dead, which would make 1842-100 = 1742

*****************

Another coffee reading system 1870
http://books.google.de/books?id=gdkDAAA ... li&f=false

****************

Modern English book. The author seems to have seen more of the Tamponelli manuscript (short, but more details):
http://books.google.de/books?id=9RwdcbW ... 22&f=false

***************

Modern Italian book. Coffee reading 1726 in Ireland.
http://books.google.de/books?id=nN7QEYn ... 22&f=false

***************

France 1850
http://books.google.de/books?id=-_IK-rI ... 22&f=false

Le grande livre de destin:
Répertoire général des sciences occultes d'aprés Albert-le-Grand, N. Flamel, Paracelse, Rober Bacon, Corneille, Agrippa, le Pape Jean XXII, Ch. Fourier, Eteilla, Madame Lénormand, Gall, Lavater, tec. ...
A. Frédéric de La Grange [assumed to be a pseudonym of Pitois, DDD 157
. ]Lavigne, 1850 - 388 Seiten

***************

France 1845
http://books.google.de/books?id=QnkGAAA ... 22&f=false

L'art de connaître l'avenir par la chiromancie, les horoscopes, les divinations anciennes, le marc de café, etc
Johannès Trismégiste (pseud.)
1845
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#14
I hope Mary does not mind me stealing her thunder here. :-s

Last month Mary wrote a blog post about a discovery she made in the British Museum collection of a 1796 English deck of 32 "emblematical cards" in the British Museum. Click on More views to see all the cards and the accompanying booklet. It appears to be a forerunner of Hechtel's 1799 Game of Hope deck. The cards contain inspirational proverbs but the accompanying booklet contains meanings for coffee grounds divination and calls the cards "the coffee pack". According to the booklet, the cards were discovered in Germany in 1793 and first appeared in Vienna in 1794 (I don't doubt the deck came from Germany or Austria but I take these statements of where and when it originated with a pinch of salt).

Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#15
Huck wrote:In the start article of this thread I've pointed to the text of 1763, which contains not only the first note about Cartomancy, but also a system with 35 figures for coffee interpretation. I've analyzed the system there andtranslated the key expressions. The same system (or at least rather similar) is used 1769 by ...

http://books.google.de/books?id=i8g6AAA ... &q&f=false
Abhandlung der Physiognomie, Metoposcopie und Chiromantie
Christian A. Peuschel
1769 - 401 pages

Both (1763 and 1769) have 35 figures
Huck, please can you help me with this. I could not see where you got the 35 symbols from in the 1763 text, although I could find them in the 1769 text (which is very helpful but I would like to get my facts straight). Could you please point me to the location of the first symbol in the 1763 text (page number etc)?

Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#16
Helen wrote:
Huck, please can you help me with this. I could not see where you got the 35 symbols from in the 1763 text, although I could find them in the 1769 text (which is very helpful but I would like to get my facts straight). Could you please point me to the location of the first symbol in the 1763 text (page number etc)?
hi Helen, nice to meet you ...

... you detected a problem.

Books-Google has made, that the pages 35-46 in the relevant text disappeared.
http://books.google.de/books?id=L9lDAAA ... en&f=false

The 35 symbols description was once there, I'm sure. But they are gone now with the missing pages, at least for the moment.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Reading from the rest of the Coffee

#19
Looking again at the link to the 1763 book, I see that pp. 35-46 are now back. But didn't you reproduce the relevant pages at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=847#p12091 and list the 35 symbols? So it's just a matter of where, on these pages, are they, e.g. the first one.

I am interested in whether there is any correlation between these symbols and those of Etteilla, writing in 1770. He refers then to coffee grounds reading as an existing art, and also to tarot reading in the same terms, as Dummett noticed and I quoted at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1019&p=15429&hilit=coffee#p15429. But were the systems at all similar, other than having a similar number of items in them, 32 cards vs. 35 coffee-reading symbols? Here again are the 35--although it's just 34, I think, with two more that have to do with interpreting all of the preceding symbols, as to when they will come about.
coffee
*******
1. open ways ... lucky progress
2. closed ways ... blocked conditions, anger
3. birds ... good friends
4. dog or dogs ... good news
5. fox or foxes ... treacherous persons
6. vipers ... not favorable foes
7. trees ... favorable friends
8. four leaf cloves ... luck
9. flag ... also luck
10. point ... one has gotten a letter
11. various points together ... a present will arrive
12. key (upside) ... a work or position will do well
13. key (downside) ... opposition of 12.
14. coffin
15. leaning person ... sickness, "black points" indicate the position of sickness
16. grapes ... special luck and inner enjoyment
17. black point ... coming accident
18. double eagle ... if high or near to "Näpfgen" (?) it means lucky near marriage
19. double eagle ... if low or near to bottom of "Näpfgen" (?) it means not reasonable hope
20. messenger on foot, who brings a letter ... bad news
21. rose ... honor and good hop on future luck
22. cross ... trouble, sickness, danger and occasionally death
23. garden ... pleasant conditions
24. bouquet of flowers ... love of a good friend
25. dove ... good luck in games
26. fishes ... others tell bad stories about oneself
27. worms ... disrespect and slander by others
28. anchor ... hope
29. small child ... fatherhood
30. stork ... shifting, locomotion, travel
31. ships ... richness and good income
32. heart, within an apple ... noble character
33. heart, within many points ... changing character
34. high tower ... long life and happy age
35. if the signs are higher ... the things announced will arrive in near future
(35.) if the signs are near bottom, there are occasionally numbers (of days or months)
Now I just have to find Etteilla's. What I am interested in finding out is whether they are two different systems originating very differently, whether they emerged together, or whether one borrowed from the other. Or perhaps they both come from something else, like geomancy. It would seem, from Wikipedia's article on the subject, that coffee-grounds reading was based on the reading of splatters of paints or other liquids that hardened from the middle ages. I don't know their basis. but I do know, from a Finnish friend, that the Finnns had a tradition at New Year's of reading splatterings of molten lead. I of course am interested in the cards side of the equation.

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