"taro ulcus" riddle Cardano c. 1526

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From the Cardano text
viewtopic.php?f=11&p=10473#p10473

I read a "taro ulcus" ... in a German interpreting text is assumed "taro, ulcus," as two different games (I never heard of a game "ulcus" and otherwise I found not much "taro ulcus" in the search machine).

My own idea would identify a later misreading of "tarochus" ... :-) ... or a joke of the author.

If I assume "tarochus, triumphus, & similis" for the passage, and I consider 1526 as the true date, wouldn't it be the earliest reference which makes a difference between Tarot and Triumphus?

The note of Rabelais is considered from 1534, right ? Any other new finding in this problem?

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btw.
The strange word "Fritillus" I found identified with "a cylindrical box for holding dice"

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In a second passage in chapter XXIV I found ...

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It contains "tarochi" and nowhere an "ulcus" ... and Triumphus or similar is also present.

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In a third passage in Chapter XXV I found ...

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Between other game names I identify "triumphi, triumfeti, sequetae, sequentinum tarochi", also "Cricones" and "Romfa" (which were already mentioned as allowed games 1463 in Florence beside "Trionfi" as "Cricce and Romfa")
... hereby ome insecurity is likely, if "sequentinum taroch" means one of two different games.

... as the author uses Tarochi at two other places, one should assume that "taro ulcus" means as suggested "tarochus".
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: "taro ulcus" riddle Cardano c. 1526

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Huck wrote:
Image

From the Cardano text
viewtopic.php?f=11&p=10473#p10473

I read a "taro ulcus" ... in a German interpreting text is assumed "taro, ulcus," as two different games (I never heard of a game "ulcus" and otherwise I found not much "taro ulcus" in the search machine).

My own idea would identify a later misreading of "tarochus" ... :-) ... or a joke of the author.
Since “ulcus” is a Latin word (meaning “ulcer”) we cannot exclude that it also was the name of a game. I am not knowledgeable enough to tell if there ever was a game whose name can translate to something like “ulcer”. Anyway, I think we must accept “taro” as a Latin nominative.

As an alternative, we are left with “taroulcus. If we want to consider a typo, I would go for “taroculus” (shifting the “c” two places to the left), which, being the natural diminutive of "tarocus", could be a Latin form for “tarocchino”.

Re: "taro ulcus" riddle Cardano c. 1526

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In The Book on Games of Chance by Gerolamo Cardano / translated by Sydney Henri Gould ; with foreword by Samuel S. Wilks. 1961 edition the passage is translated like your German translation as two seperate words:

"On the Twofold Division of Games

"Some games use dice, that is, the play is open, and others cards, that is,
the play is concealed. Each kind is again subdivided, since some games
consist solely of chance, especially dice, and also primero and fluxus in
cards. But some join to chance the art of play, as fritillus in dice and in
cards taro, ulcus, triumphus and the like. Therefore it is established that
games consist either of luck alone, or of luck and art, and since each kind
can be open or concealed, it is clear that there are four fundamental kinds
of games among those which consist in luck, and not in bodily strength or
agility."

According to a David Levy here:
http://www.pbm.com/pipermail/hist-games ... 00236.html

re: fritillus
quote:
V · BACUS
Bacchus: the god of wine shown sitting on a cask, drinking from a flask.

Bacchus spelt 'bacus' or 'bacvs', was also a word that also meant a dicing table:

quote:
"The Ginny hen floure is called of Dodonas, Flos Meleagris: of Lobelius, Lilio-narcissus variegata, for that it hath the floure of a Frittio Lilly, and the root of Narcissus: it hath Checquered Daffodill beene called Fritillaria, of the table or boord upon which men play at Chesse, which square checkers the floure doth very much resemble; some thinking that it was named Fritillus: whereof there is no certainty; for Martial seemeth to call Fritillus, bacus, or the Tables whereon men play at Dice, in the fifth booke of his Epigrams, writing to Galla.

The sad Boy now his nuts cast by,
Is call'd to Schoole by Masters cry:
And the drunke Dicer now betray'd
By flattering Tables as he play'd,
Is from his secret tipling house drawne out,
Although the Officer he much besought,

In English we may call it Turky-hen or Ginny-hen Floure, and also Checquered Daffodill, and Fritillarie, according to the Latine." end quote from:
Thomas Johnson, The Herbal or General History of Plants(1633)
end quote from:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... ostcount=1

Re: "taro ulcus" riddle Cardano c. 1526

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marco wrote: Since “ulcus” is a Latin word (meaning “ulcer”) we cannot exclude that it also was the name of a game. I am not knowledgeable enough to tell if there ever was a game whose name can translate to something like “ulcer”. Anyway, I think we must accept “taro” as a Latin nominative.

As an alternative, we are left with “taroulcus. If we want to consider a typo, I would go for “taroculus” (shifting the “c” two places to the left), which, being the natural diminutive of "tarocus", could be a Latin form for “tarocchino”.
Most texts of Cardano (who had much literary output) were never printed, and the editor of 1663 (called first printing) saw a manuscript with no chance to ask the author.
Paper was expensive. When Cardano made an error and realized, he made one, then he didn't correct the former text, but proceeded. So - likely - the text had the character of a note book, not intended to be really published or it was only a preparation for a later publication.

Matthew Mcfadyen (btw. a friend of Michael Dummett and John McLeod) noted ...
http://www.link.cs.cmu.edu/15859-s11/no ... review.pdf
Chapters 13 and 14 concern outcomes of the sum of points. The theory is an extension of the earlier
results, and Cardano observes:
“In the case of two dice, the points 12 and 11 can be obtained respectively as (6,6) and (6,5). The point
10 consists of (5,5) and of (6,4) but the latter can occur in two ways, so that the whole number of ways of
obtaining 10 will be 1/12 of the circuit and 1/6 of equality.”
Note that Cardano uses ordered pairs to illustrate the outcomes (presuming that the translated text does
not use this for simplification). Also note that the expression 1/12 of the circuit is what we would refer to
as a probability of 1/12.
In Chapter 14 the use of the term “odds” is found, as we would apply it today:
“If therefore, someone should say, ‘I want an ace, a deuce, or a trey, you know that there are 27
favourable throws, and since the circuit is 36, the rest of the throws in which these points will not turn up
will be 9; the odds will therefore be 3 to 1.’”

It is interesting that after having made this observation, the earlier text is not corrected. Professor Ore
notes that this is typical of Cardano’s presentations.
So "writing errors" seem to be plausible under such conditions. It's a pity, that Mcfadyen relates only to the probability calculation of the text.
I don't find a translation of this text ...
only a snippet-version of Ore's text, which seems to contain a translation.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RbXaAA ... CDIQ6AEwAg

A Latin electronic text:
http://home.degnet.de/metten_gym/cardan ... _aleae.htm
Capvt XXII.
De diuisione Ludorum gemina.

Ludorum alij consistunt in Alea, id est, euentu rei aperte, alij in chartis, id est euentu rei occultae. Vtrumque genus diuiditur, quoniam alij fortuna tantum constant, vt sancius in Alea, & primaria, ac fluxus in chartis. Alij fortunae artem ludendi adiungunt, vt in Alea fritilli ludi in chartis, taro vlcus, triumphus, & similis. Cum ergo necesse sit ludos constare fortuna tantum, vel fortuna, & arte, & vtrumque genus ex apertis, aut occultis, manifestum est, quod ludorum, qui fortuna constant, & non robore, vel agilitate corporis quatuor sunt prima genera.

Capvt XXIII.
De ludis Chartarum, in quibus industriae locus est.

Cum ergo in huiusmodi exerceamus industriam in re incognita, necesse est, vt memoria earum, quas deposuimus, aut teximus, aut reliquimus, aliquid possit, in quibusdam autem plurimum, vt in trapola, Veneto ludo. Hoc eximuntur tria, quatuor, quinque, & sex puncta. In quatuor generibus sunt sexdecim, relinquuntur triginta sex. Dantur quinque post quatuor; in duobus lusoribus sunt decem octo chartae totidem in cumulo relinquuntur; si primo placent, retinet, etsi secundo displicent, mutat, & nouem primas recipit superiores in cumulo; si placent, & ipse suas retinet; si non commutat cum secundis cumulis; vides igitur quantum possit memoria, iudicio, scientia cauendi dolos, & securitate debita. Plures ergo dum satis bene memorantur, non satis vitant caute dolos collusoris, aut non prudenter ludunt, aut timidè nimis, vel quasi iracunde. Propterea cum in Saccense oppidum, me contulissem hoc ludo mirum in modum delectabar; ex quo omnis boni initium habui. Namque indiustria effeci, vt omnium chartarum, quas deposuissem, memor semper essem. Ars vero in ludendo plurimum valet. Namque vltimam chartam, qui obtinet, sex habet puncta, si eadem binarius sit, valet xxvj. sex quoniam in vltimo: Decem quia cum sit minima, nisisit sola, non potest non vinci: in vltimoverò duplicatur, ideo valet viginti, cui addito sex, valet viginti sex; si bis hoc contingat, scilicet, vt penultima sit binarius, & vltima, valent lij, scilicet sìngulae xxvj.sin autem tres binarij valent lxxviij. ter scilicet multiplicato xxvj. vt sint vltima penultima, ante penultima omnes binarij sunt, qui velint valere centum, & quatuor duplicato lij. sed non est rectum, sic enim oporteret, vt vltima valeret xxvj. penultima cum vltima lxxviij. & antepenultima cumreliquis duabus ccxxxiv. quod nerno admittit, istiusmodi tamen constant consuetudine, aut pactis, quemadmodum, & quòd binarius, si sit prima, vt etiam in reliquis, nec vincatur, quoniam eo genere chartarum careat collusor decem valet, apud aliquos tamen valet xij. Pedes valet puncta tria. Regina, vel Equus, quatuor, Rex quinque, punctum vnum vocant lunetam aeque supremum in suo genere, vicitque Regem, & omnes alias chartas, valet sex, tres lunetae ante ludum valent xij, tres binarij x. tres Reges, aut Equi, vel Reginae, vel Pedites sex, nec oportet, nisi in lunetis dicere, quales sint; sed cum binario omnes nomine figurarum appellantur. Oportet autem tres esse similes, & vnius generis, vt tres binarij, vel tres Reges, nec est necesse, vt lunetas, vel figuras ab initio ludi appellemus, sed solum, antequam vllam ex illis tribus detegamus, aut ludamus, vel ludendo, dum non collegerimus illarum vllam;sì quis omnes chartas obtineat, cucum vocant duplicaturq; totus numerus. Hanc igitur chartarum memoriam, cum ad verbi vnius scientiam traduxissem ex illo didici etiam multas res, hoc modo vnius verbi continere. Inde excolendo inuentum totam vnam lectionem, & quae in ea continerentur. Post etiam illa inueniri & ex autoribus deriuare. Vnde modus ille ex temporanee profitendi. Sed reuertor ad chartarum lusum, nam hoc genus ludi est artificiosissimum, cura in certa re, & vi naturae consisteret, omisi exercitationem illius diuinationis multis ex causìs. Primum enim me statim contuli Patauium, inde in Saccense oppidum, atque ita occasio sublata illius ludi; nam ea sors non habet locum, vbi ludo industria commiscetur. Deinde quòd timerem, ne nimis rìdendo me euerteret. Praeterea dicebam si ex Demone est fallax, est & contra legem, si fortuita stultum est illi fidere. Abhorrebam etiam a ludi genere damnato legibus. Praeterea stultum existimaui, cum possem locupletiore conditione securiore scilicet, & ex naturali ratione pendente certare velle tam absurdè inniti.


Capvt XXIV.
De differentia ludi Chartarum a ludo Aleae.

Differunt ludi Chartarum à ludis Alee, in quibus industria locum habet, quòd Alea de futuro iudicium fert,& magis licet de alieno successu tamen etiam de proprio, Chartarum autem ludi de prasentibus, & alienis solum iudicium requirunt. At de praesentibus coniectari, prudentis est magis viri,& humana sapientis; de futuris antem quamquam sit alia ratio coniecturae, non quod futura sint, sed cui potius iure innitendum sit, est tamen diuini potius hominis, aut insani, nam melancolici diuinare solent. Etenimin Alea nil habes certum signum, sed omnia planè in pura fortuna reposita sunt, si alea aequalis sit. Quicquid autem est in ea praeter, leuem coniecturam, & rationes superius dictas ad temeritatem referri debet. At in chartis, quas posuit vultus chartarum a tergo agnitio, milleque aliae agnitiones naturales, & dignae, prudenti viro habentur. Vnde inter omnes ludos subtilitate praecedit, is, qui latrunculus fit. Sed fortunae arbitrio parum, aut nihil subiacet, vtilitate armorum, salubritate pilae: lepore: trapolae: pulchritudine inuenti, & modorum primaria, pecuniarum magnitudine sanctius, concertatione assiduae, quae parum fatigat fritillus, extractione temporis tarochi: Dignitate Cricones, prudentia, & vitae humanae imitatione triumphi. Decet igitur sapientem chartis ludere, quàm alea, & triumphis potiùs, quàm aliis ludis, constat ergo, (sed in vsu non est) quòd medius quidam est modus ludendi chartis apertis, proximior ferme latrunculorum ludo. Et finem habet, cum nil amplius expectet;sed quilibet ludus sibi finem facit. Atque is, est qui fit nouem cum chartis, (nam hic est numerus satis idoneus) ac mediocris inter magnum, & paruum ad ludendum, detectis, inde certare, vt solent cum occultis. Demiror autem cum hic sit ingeniosissimus, solum neglectum à tot gentibus esse.

Capvt XXV.
De ludis Chartarum.

Ludi igitur Chartarum, non in expectatione futurorum sunt nisi cum commutantur. Suntque earum plura genera, sed numerare non licet: Nam quòd dixit Horatius de verbis, idem de ludis dicere conuenit: satis erit eos distinguere generibus suis, ac speciebus, tum simplicibus, tum compositis. Prima igitur genera sunt lusus arbitrio solius fortunae, & cum industria. Fortunae solius sunt primaria fluxus, qui fit cum tribus chartis: Gallicus est pulcherrimus, nam vnum cum figura, vel cum binario efficit xxi. qui summus est punctus apud reliquas, plerasquae gentes. Sed apud Gallos, si adsit aliud vnum fiunt viginti vnum cum dimidio. Sed tria puncta superant etiam fluxum, & est supremum, & pro fluxu, & puncto haberi potest. Viginti etiam cum vno puncto, alia in charta efficit viginti cum dimidio, & ita habent viginti, viginti cum dimidio, viginti vnum, & viginti vnum cum dimidio, & viginti duo, qui (vt dixi) superior ed fluxui. Post est fluxada: silerium, idest, ego habeo, quadriginta, & triginta vnum, Baseta ludus desperatorum, Cricones, fortunae, & industria, triumphi, triumfeti, sequentiae, sequentinum tarochi, centum, trapola, Romfa, scaltara, tum alij multi. Alia diuisio est penè differentias proprias, quoniam ludi quidam tetinent aestimationem chartarum, alij non retinent, sed mutant. Alij numero chartarum, alij estimatione, alij consequentibus, alij certa ratione loci, seu ordinis, aut proprietate conficiunt numerum, quò superiores, aut inferiores euadunt:
I think, there would be some interest to see this translated.
From my own side, especially the red passages. And especially the last chapter XXV.

He speaks of France (and I assume from French cards) and a number problem between 20-21-22 ... "Sed apud Gallos, si adsit aliud vnum fiunt viginti vnum cum dimidio. Sed tria puncta superant etiam fluxum, & est supremum, & pro fluxu, & puncto haberi potest. Viginti etiam cum vno puncto, alia in charta efficit viginti cum dimidio, & ita habent viginti, viginti cum dimidio, viginti vnum, & viginti vnum cum dimidio, & viginti duo, qui (vt dixi) superior ed fluxui". This especially interests me.
"Ludi igitur Chartarum, non in expectatione futurorum sunt nisi cum commutantur." Is this an indication of the existence of divination cards?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: "taro ulcus" riddle Cardano c. 1526

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I was so lucky to get some passages of the translation in ...

Oysten Ore: "Cardano - The gambling Scholar" with a translation from the Latin of Cardano's Book on game of Chance by Sydney Henry Gould, Dover Publications, NY 1953

So we have for chapter 22:
Capvt XXII.
De diuisione Ludorum gemina.

Ludorum alij consistunt in Alea, id est, euentu rei aperte, alij in chartis, id est euentu rei occultae. Vtrumque genus diuiditur, quoniam alij fortuna tantum constant, vt sancius in Alea, & primaria, ac fluxus in chartis. Alij fortunae artem ludendi adiungunt, vt in Alea fritilli ludi in chartis, taro vlcus, triumphus, & similis. Cum ergo necesse sit ludos constare fortuna tantum, vel fortuna, & arte, & vtrumque genus ex apertis, aut occultis, manifestum est, quod ludorum, qui fortuna constant, & non robore, vel agilitate corporis quatuor sunt prima genera.
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... and it seems, the translator takes "taro" and "ulcus" as two different games. But I personally would assume a typo.

For the second part of chapter 24 we have:
Capvt XXIV.
De differentia ludi Chartarum a ludo Aleae.
...

At in chartis, quas posuit vultus chartarum a tergo agnitio, milleque aliae agnitiones naturales, & dignae, prudenti viro habentur. Vnde inter omnes ludos subtilitate praecedit, is, qui latrunculus fit. Sed fortunae arbitrio parum, aut nihil subiacet, vtilitate armorum, salubritate pilae: lepore: trapolae: pulchritudine inuenti, & modorum primaria, pecuniarum magnitudine sanctius, concertatione assiduae, quae parum fatigat fritillus, extractione temporis tarochi: Dignitate Cricones, prudentia, & vitae humanae imitatione triumphi. Decet igitur sapientem chartis ludere, quàm alea, & triumphis potiùs, quàm aliis ludis, constat ergo, (sed in vsu non est) quòd medius quidam est modus ludendi chartis apertis, proximior ferme latrunculorum ludo. Et finem habet, cum nil amplius expectet;sed quilibet ludus sibi finem facit. Atque is, est qui fit nouem cum chartis, (nam hic est numerus satis idoneus) ac mediocris inter magnum, & paruum ad ludendum, detectis, inde certare, vt solent cum occultis. Demiror autem cum hic sit ingeniosissimus, solum neglectum à tot gentibus esse.
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In the case, that it is a correct translation, this seems to be the most interesting passage. Tarochi is good for "the passing of the time" [extractione temporis tarochi] and Triumphus "in prudence and imitation of human life" [prudentia, & vitae humanae imitatione triumphi]. About triumphus we learn further, that this is (in 1526, when Cardnus wrote about it) not often used way to play it [sed in vsu non est] and that this is a sort of midway game played with open cards, very close to chess [triumphis potiùs, quàm aliis ludis, constat ergo ... quòd medius quidam est modus ludendi chartis apertis, proximior ferme latrunculorum ludo - with "open cards", that sounds a little bit like a patience game]. It has an end when nothing further could be done and every game has it owns end [Et finem habet, cum nil amplius expectet;sed quilibet ludus sibi finem facit}. It is played with nine cards ... the cards are placed on the table and the play begins as "one is accustomed to do with hidden cards".

Cardano should be regarded as player with sense for complicated games, well known for his dedication to chess. He admires this version of play (Triumphus, not Tarochus), and is puzzled, why this type of play isn't very popular or at least not popular in other nations (Cardano lived in Pavia, so Milanese territory; 1526, btw, isn't that a rather near time to the battle of Pavia? - February 1525) .

That's very interesting. It sounds like a patience game, but likely there is not only one player as in patience. When I read this, I though of the Glic descriptions of England 17th century. but also of Minchiate versions, which make a lot of card combination. But for the moment ... that's a Cardano riddle.

chapter 25:
Capvt XXV.
De ludis Chartarum.

Ludi igitur Chartarum, non in expectatione futurorum sunt nisi cum commutantur. Suntque earum plura genera, sed numerare non licet: Nam quòd dixit Horatius de verbis, idem de ludis dicere conuenit: satis erit eos distinguere generibus suis, ac speciebus, tum simplicibus, tum compositis. Prima igitur genera sunt lusus arbitrio solius fortunae, & cum industria. Fortunae solius sunt primaria fluxus, qui fit cum tribus chartis: Gallicus est pulcherrimus, nam vnum cum figura, vel cum binario efficit xxi. qui summus est punctus apud reliquas, plerasquae gentes. Sed apud Gallos, si adsit aliud vnum fiunt viginti vnum cum dimidio. Sed tria puncta superant etiam fluxum, & est supremum, & pro fluxu, & puncto haberi potest. Viginti etiam cum vno puncto, alia in charta efficit viginti cum dimidio, & ita habent viginti, viginti cum dimidio, viginti vnum, & viginti vnum cum dimidio, & viginti duo, qui (vt dixi) superior ed fluxui. Post est fluxada: silerium, idest, ego habeo, quadriginta, & triginta vnum, Baseta ludus desperatorum, Cricones, fortunae, & industria, triumphi, triumfeti, sequentiae, sequentinum tarochi, centum, trapola, Romfa, scaltara, tum alij multi. Alia diuisio est penè differentias proprias, quoniam ludi quidam tetinent aestimationem chartarum, alij non retinent, sed mutant. Alij numero chartarum, alij estimatione, alij consequentibus, alij certa ratione loci, seu ordinis, aut proprietate conficiunt numerum, quò superiores, aut inferiores euadunt:
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This is less interesting, as I assumed it to be, when I only saw the Latin text.
Huck
http://trionfi.com